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Deade

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Circumcision wasn't even mentioned in the letter they sent.

Acts 15:1,5 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
It was mentioned!

Who's history?
Oh, you know, primary sources, actual statements made by historical figures rather than stuff you made up. The testimony of Christians who were martyred for their faith just like the Apostles.
Maybe you should double-check some of your historical figures.
 
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prodromos

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Not in the letter.
Maybe you should double-check some of your historical figures.
I've read through them many times. Where did you read that Constantine made Christianity the State religion?
Where did you read that Constantine substituted Sunday for the sabbath in hopes of attracting the sun worshipers of his day? What are your sources? Maybe you should double check some of your 'facts'.
 
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Deade

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Not in the letter.

Part of the letter: (KJV)
Act 15:23,24 "And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:



It's history. Name your sources and I'll name mine starting with the Catholic Ibid.
 
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prodromos

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Hoist with your own petard. No command to keep the Sabbath.
 
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Deade

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Hoist with your own petard. No command to keep the Sabbath.

It also omitted not to steal or kill, but does it give license to do those? The content: It was about circumcision only.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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So who were the Waldensians before Peter Waldo? Can anyone who believes in such a history point to a definitive early source or figure who can be tied directly by succession to Peter Waldo and the subsequent Waldensian community?

To me it just seems like a desperate attempt to place oneself or group in history knowing that such a placement didn't actually exist.
 
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prodromos

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So if I understand the thread: The Waldensians are being used as a ploy to advertise the OP's book of revisionist history?

Neato.

-Cryptolutheran
Not sure if he has a book, but I did click through to their website. Interestingly, they have Ellen White's "The Great Controversy" recommended for further reading. These people seem happy to embrace anyone just as long as they opposed Rome, regardless of whatever heresy they taught.
Actually, further reading of the site makes it clear that they are 100% SDA.
 
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prodromos

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It's history. Name your sources and I'll name mine starting with the Catholic Ibid. View attachment 271709
Nevermind, I clicked through and found that all your nonsense is based on Ellen G. White's "The Great Conspiracy".
Nothing more needs to be said.
 
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Deade

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Not SDA. Don't agree with Ellen White. I just presented the history of the Waldensians as I received it. I am not even affiliated with the presenters. It appears they were assimilated into mainstream Christianity anyway.
 
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Tom 1

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I don’t think you are supposed to advertise on CF - unless you have permission?
 
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Deade

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I don’t think you are supposed to advertise on CF - unless you have permission?

It is not an ad, it is just information pertaining to the historical references discussed. I only mentioned it was from my book for transparency only.

 
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Tom 1

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ViaCrucis

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It is not an ad, it is just information pertaining to the historical references discussed. I only mentioned it was from my book for transparency only.

View attachment 272263

How does one write a book about a subject that they seemingly don't know much about? The things you are promoting in this thread are demonstrably false, and the information is readily available. Any of us who have actually studied the history of Christianity can tell you that you're mistaken because we have actually done our homework.

Constantine did not change the Sabbath. That is a lie. Constantine did make the first day of the week a civil holiday, this day does correspond to the Kyriake Hemera, the Lord's Day--the day Christians have gathered for worship since the time of the Apostles. And, yes, Christians have always gathered on the first day of the week, and this is easily demonstrated by looking at the primary historical sources--what Christians themselves said.

The Sabbath is not "the day of worship", but a day of rest which God established for the Jewish people, that's why labor is prohibited on the Sabbath. Later in Jewish history with the establishment of synagogues as places of worship, the gathering together on the Sabbath became the custom; and it is what necessitated the idea of a "Sabbath's day journey", the distance permitted to walk to attend synagogue.

The earliest Christians, being Jews, continued to gather together for Jewish worship in the synagogue; and we can pretty safely assume that very early on many synagogues were mixed, with both believers and non-believers. However, Gentiles wouldn't have been attending the synagogue; and neither would a mixed synagogue practice the new Christian rites, such as the Eucharist. This necessitated specifically Christian meetings, which were generally in the homes of wealthier members of the community. As such the early Jewish Christians would have met with other Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath, and then after the Sabbath both Jewish and Gentile Christians met together for explicitly Christian purposes, most importantly the Eucharist. As the synagogues become less welcoming for Christians, and the division between Church and Synagogue came into effect by the end of the 1st century, the elements of the synagogue were transferred to Christian worship gatherings, which occurred on the day after the Sabbath.

This is the basis for the Christian Liturgy: Scripture readings, prayers, singing of hymns, and a homily/sermon were (and still are) the basic elements of the Jewish liturgy, and continue to be part of Christian formal worship. The Christian Liturgy is still split between two parts based upon this ancient order: The Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Altar.

And so when we see St. Justin writing in the 2nd century about when Christians gather for worship and what they do when they gather, he is describing things which are familiar to anyone who has attended a traditional Christian worship service; and what he is describing are the elements of Christian worship that go back to the first and second generation of Christians in the 1st century.

You know what doesn't have any support historically? That Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath until Constantine came along and told people to stop doing that. Because Christians themselves very clearly say otherwise, hundreds of years before Constantine; and Constantine didn't do anything in regard to the Sabbath and the Church.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9; c. 107 AD

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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Not SDA. Don't agree with Ellen White. I just presented the history of the Waldensians as I received it.
It seems odd that you would present something uncritically as history, when you yourself disagree with many of the beliefs of the authors of the presentation. It doesn't look like you have researched this at all.
I am not even affiliated with the presenters. It appears they were assimilated into mainstream Christianity anyway.
They are unabashedly SDA, not at all mainstream Christianity, whatever you think that is. Over 50% of Christians are Catholic, another 8.5% are Anglican or Lutheran, 12 % are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox. The remaining 30% are all over the shop, so I have no idea what you mean by that term, and I don't think you do either.
 
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Deade

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My research show this paragraph above blatantly false. Look I won't shoot you belief system down, even if you do mine. I will let you believe what you want. I have researched and written about my research. I will serve God as I see fit and share that Ideal with anyone that will listen. I don't have to answer to anyone else's ideals and I won't try. Continue on with your false history.
 
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Deade

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It seems odd that you would present something uncritically as history, when you yourself disagree with many of the beliefs of the authors of the presentation. It doesn't look like you have researched this at all.

I did not say I disagree with anything they presented. I was referencing SDAs. I do disagree with them on much but not all. I just said they are not my in my domain.

If you think that most Christians are on the right track, then you disagree with Christ. Matt. 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
 
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prodromos

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My research show this paragraph above blatantly false
Then I would question whether you are going to primary sources. So far the only source you've hinted at is Ellen G. White who is far from primary and extremely biased.
We've given you two direct quotes from Christians in the early and mid 2nd Century demonstrating that Christians primarily worshipped on Sunday.
You've made a direct statement about Constantine's motives regarding Sunday, yet you've given no source to back up your claim. How do you know what Constantine's motives were? Do you have a letter written by him at the time? What are your sources?
 
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prodromos

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If you think that most Christians are on the right track, then you disagree with Christ. Matt. 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
Still no clear definition of what so called 'mainstream Christians' are. It seems to be a term you throw out there to mean Christians who don't agree with you. Is that an unreasonable assessment?
 
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