Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Circumcision wasn't even mentioned in the letter they sent.

Acts 15:1,5 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
It was mentioned!

Who's history?
Oh, you know, primary sources, actual statements made by historical figures rather than stuff you made up. The testimony of Christians who were martyred for their faith just like the Apostles.
Maybe you should double-check some of your historical figures.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Acts 15:1,5 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
It was mentioned!

Not in the letter.
Maybe you should double-check some of your historical figures.
I've read through them many times. Where did you read that Constantine made Christianity the State religion?
Where did you read that Constantine substituted Sunday for the sabbath in hopes of attracting the sun worshipers of his day? What are your sources? Maybe you should double check some of your 'facts'.
 
Upvote 0

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Not in the letter.

Part of the letter: (KJV)
Act 15:23,24 "And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


I've read through them many times. Where did you read that Constantine made Christianity the State religion?
Where did you read that Constantine substituted Sunday for the sabbath in hopes of attracting the sun worshipers of his day? What are your sources? Maybe you should double check some of your 'facts'.

It's history. Name your sources and I'll name mine starting with the Catholic Ibid.
6-old-thumbsup.gif
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Part of the letter: (KJV)
Act 15:23,24 "And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Hoist with your own petard. No command to keep the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Hoist with your own petard. No command to keep the Sabbath.

It also omitted not to steal or kill, but does it give license to do those? The content: It was about circumcision only.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,083
3,768
✟290,875.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
So who were the Waldensians before Peter Waldo? Can anyone who believes in such a history point to a definitive early source or figure who can be tied directly by succession to Peter Waldo and the subsequent Waldensian community?

To me it just seems like a desperate attempt to place oneself or group in history knowing that such a placement didn't actually exist.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So if I understand the thread: The Waldensians are being used as a ploy to advertise the OP's book of revisionist history?

Neato.

-Cryptolutheran
Not sure if he has a book, but I did click through to their website. Interestingly, they have Ellen White's "The Great Controversy" recommended for further reading. These people seem happy to embrace anyone just as long as they opposed Rome, regardless of whatever heresy they taught.
Actually, further reading of the site makes it clear that they are 100% SDA.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It's history. Name your sources and I'll name mine starting with the Catholic Ibid. View attachment 271709
Nevermind, I clicked through and found that all your nonsense is based on Ellen G. White's "The Great Conspiracy".
Nothing more needs to be said.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Not sure if he has a book, but I did click through to their website. Interestingly, they have Ellen White's "The Great Controversy" recommended for further reading. These people seem happy to embrace anyone just as long as they opposed Rome, regardless of whatever heresy they taught.
Actually, further reading of the site makes it clear that they are 100% SDA.

Not SDA. Don't agree with Ellen White. I just presented the history of the Waldensians as I received it. I am not even affiliated with the presenters. It appears they were assimilated into mainstream Christianity anyway.
17no.gif
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here are a couple of paragraphs from my second book:

In 312, Constantine defeated and killed his rival Maxentius, son of Maximian, and he became emperor of the west. He, like his father, favored Christianity. Constantine had a vision of a burning cross right before his battle with Maxentius. Above the cross were the words En Hoc Signo Vinces, which means “In this sign conquer.” He therefore fought the battle in the name of the Christian God. His victory caused him to convert to Christianity. In 313, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, giving Christians the right to practice their religion. He urges his followers to become Christians, like him. In 321, Constantine issued an edict forbidding work on Sunday. In 323, he defeated the eastern emperor; and became the sole emperor of the east and west.

In 324, he established Christianity as the state religion. Finally, all of Rome accepted Christianity as their state religion. But at this time, there were many different doctrines among Christians. So Constantine called upon a conclave of bishops from all over Rome, to settle these differences. This happened at the Council of Nicea in 325, which was convened to solve two main differences: The first was the divinity of Christ. Arius, a priest of Alexandria, was teaching that Christ was created and not eternal and divine like the Father. The Council denied him and his doctrines; and condemned his followers, the Arian teachers, although this Arian wing continued strong in some areas. When the Germanic and Gothic invaders were converted to Christianity, it was usually to the Arian form. The other major difference, facing the Council was the date on which to celebrate Passover. At this time, in Asia Minor, many Christians still commemorated Jesus’ death on the day the Jewish Passover lambs were slain. But Rome and the Western churches chose to honor the resurrection instead. They celebrated the Passover always on a Sunday. The Council ruled in favor of the west and Rome. It ruled that the Passover, commemorating the death of Jesus, no longer be kept—anyone keeping the old way would be put to death. This new Passover was celebrated on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox. It was later called “Easter” by the Germanic Christian converts. But was this so called “Christianity” the real deal; or was it a false, counterfeit version? The first thing Constantine did was to substitute Sunday for the sabbath, instead of the seventh day that should have been. He did this in hopes of attracting the sun worshipers of his day. Remember how I pointed out in chapter three that the seventh-day sabbath was a “sign” commandment? This true sabbath pointed to God’s true covenant people. The Roman Catholic Church grew out of this “hijacking” of Christianity by Constantine. I might note here: as a result of this hijacking—and his Sunday sabbath—the later Council of Laodicea (AD 365) outlawed the true seventh-day sabbath (sunset Friday to sunset Saturday).

I don’t think you are supposed to advertise on CF - unless you have permission?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Deade
Upvote 0

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I don’t think you are supposed to advertise on CF - unless you have permission?

It is not an ad, it is just information pertaining to the historical references discussed. I only mentioned it was from my book for transparency only.

in-deep-thought-smiley-emoticon.gif
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Tom 1
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,458
26,889
Pacific Northwest
✟732,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
It is not an ad, it is just information pertaining to the historical references discussed. I only mentioned it was from my book for transparency only.

View attachment 272263

How does one write a book about a subject that they seemingly don't know much about? The things you are promoting in this thread are demonstrably false, and the information is readily available. Any of us who have actually studied the history of Christianity can tell you that you're mistaken because we have actually done our homework.

Constantine did not change the Sabbath. That is a lie. Constantine did make the first day of the week a civil holiday, this day does correspond to the Kyriake Hemera, the Lord's Day--the day Christians have gathered for worship since the time of the Apostles. And, yes, Christians have always gathered on the first day of the week, and this is easily demonstrated by looking at the primary historical sources--what Christians themselves said.

The Sabbath is not "the day of worship", but a day of rest which God established for the Jewish people, that's why labor is prohibited on the Sabbath. Later in Jewish history with the establishment of synagogues as places of worship, the gathering together on the Sabbath became the custom; and it is what necessitated the idea of a "Sabbath's day journey", the distance permitted to walk to attend synagogue.

The earliest Christians, being Jews, continued to gather together for Jewish worship in the synagogue; and we can pretty safely assume that very early on many synagogues were mixed, with both believers and non-believers. However, Gentiles wouldn't have been attending the synagogue; and neither would a mixed synagogue practice the new Christian rites, such as the Eucharist. This necessitated specifically Christian meetings, which were generally in the homes of wealthier members of the community. As such the early Jewish Christians would have met with other Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath, and then after the Sabbath both Jewish and Gentile Christians met together for explicitly Christian purposes, most importantly the Eucharist. As the synagogues become less welcoming for Christians, and the division between Church and Synagogue came into effect by the end of the 1st century, the elements of the synagogue were transferred to Christian worship gatherings, which occurred on the day after the Sabbath.

This is the basis for the Christian Liturgy: Scripture readings, prayers, singing of hymns, and a homily/sermon were (and still are) the basic elements of the Jewish liturgy, and continue to be part of Christian formal worship. The Christian Liturgy is still split between two parts based upon this ancient order: The Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Altar.

And so when we see St. Justin writing in the 2nd century about when Christians gather for worship and what they do when they gather, he is describing things which are familiar to anyone who has attended a traditional Christian worship service; and what he is describing are the elements of Christian worship that go back to the first and second generation of Christians in the 1st century.

You know what doesn't have any support historically? That Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath until Constantine came along and told people to stop doing that. Because Christians themselves very clearly say otherwise, hundreds of years before Constantine; and Constantine didn't do anything in regard to the Sabbath and the Church.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead." - St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chapter 9; c. 107 AD

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Not SDA. Don't agree with Ellen White. I just presented the history of the Waldensians as I received it.
It seems odd that you would present something uncritically as history, when you yourself disagree with many of the beliefs of the authors of the presentation. It doesn't look like you have researched this at all.
I am not even affiliated with the presenters. It appears they were assimilated into mainstream Christianity anyway.
They are unabashedly SDA, not at all mainstream Christianity, whatever you think that is. Over 50% of Christians are Catholic, another 8.5% are Anglican or Lutheran, 12 % are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox. The remaining 30% are all over the shop, so I have no idea what you mean by that term, and I don't think you do either.
 
Upvote 0

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
You know what doesn't have any support historically? That Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath until Constantine came along and told people to stop doing that. Because Christians themselves very clearly say otherwise, hundreds of years before Constantine; and Constantine didn't do anything in regard to the Sabbath and the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

My research show this paragraph above blatantly false. Look I won't shoot you belief system down, even if you do mine. I will let you believe what you want. I have researched and written about my research. I will serve God as I see fit and share that Ideal with anyone that will listen. I don't have to answer to anyone else's ideals and I won't try. Continue on with your false history.
17no.gif
 
Upvote 0

Deade

Called of God
Site Supporter
Dec 17, 2017
1,889
1,799
77
Vinita, OK
Visit site
✟274,266.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
It seems odd that you would present something uncritically as history, when you yourself disagree with many of the beliefs of the authors of the presentation. It doesn't look like you have researched this at all.

I did not say I disagree with anything they presented. I was referencing SDAs. I do disagree with them on much but not all. I just said they are not my in my domain.

They are unabashedly SDA, not at all mainstream Christianity, whatever you think that is. Over 50% of Christians are Catholic, another 8.5% are Anglican or Lutheran, 12 % are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox. The remaining 30% are all over the shop, so I have no idea what you mean by that term, and I don't think you do either.
If you think that most Christians are on the right track, then you disagree with Christ. Matt. 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My research show this paragraph above blatantly false
Then I would question whether you are going to primary sources. So far the only source you've hinted at is Ellen G. White who is far from primary and extremely biased.
We've given you two direct quotes from Christians in the early and mid 2nd Century demonstrating that Christians primarily worshipped on Sunday.
You've made a direct statement about Constantine's motives regarding Sunday, yet you've given no source to back up your claim. How do you know what Constantine's motives were? Do you have a letter written by him at the time? What are your sources?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ViaCrucis
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,597
12,124
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,176.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you think that most Christians are on the right track, then you disagree with Christ. Matt. 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
Still no clear definition of what so called 'mainstream Christians' are. It seems to be a term you throw out there to mean Christians who don't agree with you. Is that an unreasonable assessment?
 
Upvote 0