Vox Day's demolition of Darwin's Theory of Evolution

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
Look letters exist - in any writing system, they are real, they are not "really ink" - what makes them letters is not down to subjective perception. They are not "objectively ink" and "subjectively letters" - language, just like science, is a result of human imagination - we conceive it in our minds, we developed it, with our minds - it does not exist without our minds. The physical realm (probably) exists without our minds - but science is the study of the physical realm. The study of a thing is not the thing itself.

Letters are conjured entities. Even while in our minds, they are merely used to describe what is real. They themselves are not physically real, which is why people have different languages and different letters, because we created them using our imagination. They do not exist beyond what we imagine them to be.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
They do not exist beyond what we imagine them to be.

Nor does science.

What it studies might, but science is also this thing that we "conjured" in the same way as language.

Science is the study of the physical realm.

It is not the physical realm - it is the study of it.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

If we imagine something, our imagination doesn't somehow make it physically real. If I imagine an elephant in my bedroom, the elephant isn't actually real. It is just a concept of the imagination and such a things existance cannot be corroborated with anything beyond my imagination. And when i die, my conjured ideas do not disappear from existance. Rather they never existed to begin with.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
Nor does science.

What it studies might, but science is also this thing that we "conjured" in the same way as language.

Science is the study of the physical realm.

It is not the physical realm - it is the study of it.

Science is observation of the physical realm. When I die, my house will continue to physically exist. Objects will continue to fall toward the center of the earth. Gravity doesn't just disappear when I stop imagining it. However the elephant that I imagine in my bedroom will. Or rather the elephant never existed to begin with.

Gravity, being of a physical nature which exists beyond our imaginations, allows us to corroborate perceptions. Thus formed the theory of gravity. A theory which describes something that actually exists beyond what we conjure or imagine.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

Or perhaps it should be said that science includes observation of physical reality, but it also includes repeatable tests for confirmation of existance beyond just our imagination.

In kinematics, I can throw a rock at a piece of glass an infinite number of times, and the rock will always break glass by the nature of how they exist beyond our imagination.

And so in science, record is made of the properties of such objects. Hypotheses are imagined or conjured like the elephant in my room. But the cross referencing, and repeatable testing and observation, are what sets concepts in science apart from concepts of the imagination.

If I told someone that an elephant were in my bedroom, no other person could confirm such an idea. Most would probably deny it.

This of course isn't the case as it pertains to something like gravity which we are all subjected to.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

So, are prayers real? If you asked Jesus to do something for someone, and then you die, and then it happens...did your prayer live after you? Was it real or "imaginary"?

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

If someone speaks to another being, they are conveying a concept to that other person. They are conveying an idea. Something that doesn't actually exist beyond the imagination.

For example, if I asked my neighbor to bake me a cake for my birthday, and then I die. The birthday cake never actually existed. Not until the neighbor bakes the cake. Otherwise, it is simply a concept of our imagination.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
If someone speaks to another being, they are conveying a concept to that other person. They are conveying an idea. Something that doesn't actually exist beyond the imagination.

So does God exist, or is God something that doesn't exist? (In your opinion.)

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
So does God exist, or is God something that doesn't exist? (In your opinion.)

In my opinion, God does exist. But I wouldn't suggest that I could necessarily "touch" him in any way that could be objectively defined. Just as I cannot touch poetry nor can I touch letters or the elephant in my bedroom.

Unless Jesus returned in the flesh, then perhaps we could touch Him.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
And so in science, record is made of the properties of such objects. Hypotheses are imagined or conjured like the elephant in my room. But the cross referencing, and repeatable testing and observation, are what sets concepts in science apart from concepts of the imagination.

What you describe is not exclusive to science.

If someone experiences a result from prayer, and then someone else tries it and it works for them too, and then someone else...that is how Christianity expands - it is not just ideas conveyed from one to another. It is an experience lived by one person, and then the practices are taken up by another, and another. This is a repeatable thing. It is a spiritual thing, not a physical thing, but it is repeatable.

Science is not a viable way to test whether or not things are real.

Science is an excellent way to explore the physical, which is what it was established to do.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
In my opinion, God does exist. But I wouldn't suggest that I could necessarily "touch" him in any way that could be objectively defined. Just as I cannot touch poetry nor can I touch letters or the elephant in my bedroom.

Well you cannot physically touch a thing that does not physically exist, I agree.

So, if we say that God does not physically exist, then we cannot physically touch Him. That is because He is not physical, not because He is not real.

But surely if God exists - God is real? Something we conceive of with our minds, can only detect by using experience, and imagination, really exists. A subjective thing is a thing that depends on how we feel, what we want...God's existence does not depend on how we feel, or what we want.

Therefore, we can say that science studies the physical. That is not the same as saying that it reliably tests what is "real" or what "exists".

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
If we imagine something, our imagination doesn't somehow make it physically real.

Everything people have ever physically created or established has started with people imagining it.

We imagined that it was worth exploring the physical world, that is where science began - with the idea of science.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
What you describe is not exclusive to science.

If someone experiences a result from prayer, and then someone else tries it and it works for them too, and then someone else...that is how Christianity expands - it is not just ideas conveyed from one to another. It is an experience lived by one person, and then the practices are taken up by another, and another. This is a repeatable thing. It is a spiritual thing, not a physical thing, but it is repeatable.

Science is not a viable way to test whether or not things are real.

Science is an excellent way to explore the physical, which is what it was established to do.

Prayer responses typically are not objectively confirmed. For example, some people claim that they were born perhaps without sight. Then after prayers they gained sight.

Such claims, I tend to be a skeptic of. I've never seen things like records, nor have I known such a person.

I tend not to believe them due to their lack of corroborating evidence.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
Everything people have ever physically created or established has started with people imagining it.

We imagined that it was worth exploring the physical world, that is where science began - with the idea of science.

Yup, ideas are fundamental to discovery. A lot of ideas have failed to discover things though too and have turned out to be false leads.

Ideas are just ideas.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

RC Tent said:
Well you cannot physically touch a thing that does not physically exist, I agree.

So, if we say that God does not physically exist, then we cannot physically touch Him. That is because He is not physical, not because He is not real.

But surely if God exists - God is real? Something we conceive of with our minds, can only detect by using experience, and imagination, really exists. A subjective thing is a thing that depends on how we feel, what we want...God's existence does not depend on how we feel, or what we want.

Therefore, we can say that science studies the physical. That is not the same as saying that it reliably tests what is "real" or what "exists".

Science is limited to what is physically real. But what is significant here is that what we imagine, is not necessarily real. I can imagine an elephant in my bedroom. It might be real. Or it might not be real. But at the day, my imagined idea of the elephant in and of itself is not real. Nor does my imagined idea make the elephant real.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

Also, just because science deals with what is physically real and is limited to physically real entities, this does not make imagined ideas real, nor does it make imagined ideas as equally real as concepts observed in physical reality.

Just because science can't prove that God exists, this doesn't somehow make it ok to assume that our imagined idea of God is real.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

"Therefore, we can say that science studies the physical. That is not the same as saying that it reliably tests what is "real" or what "exists"."

Just because science is limited, it doesn't mean that what we test is not real. It just means that science is limited to physical reality.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

"Science is not a viable way to test whether or not things are real."

it cannot test whether or not metaphysical things are real or things beyond physical reality. This does not mean that science cannot test the reality of anything at all.

It's also does not mean that our imaginary ideas are as real as those we can test and observe and examine in physical reality.

Job 33:6 · Feb 28, 2019

And also, when we imagine God, we are not necessarily detecting God. We are conjuring an idea of what we think God is. And our idea is not necessarily real.

Just the same when I imagine an elephant in my bedroom, the elephant may or may not be real and by imagining the elephant I am not necessarily detecting the elephant.

That doesn't mean that the elephant does not exist, the elephant in my bedroom could actually exist. Regardless when I imagine the elephant I am not detecting the elephant I'm not observing or touching the elephant either.

RC Tent · Feb 28, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
"Science is not a viable way to test whether or not things are real."

it cannot test whether or not metaphysical things are real or things beyond physical reality. This does not mean that science cannot test the reality of anything at all.

It's also does not mean that our imaginary ideas are as real as those we can test and observe and examine in physical reality.

I have not said that science cannot test the reality of anything at all.

Physical reality is not more real than God. There is no way that the creator of a thing is less real than the thing that he/she created.

There is no science without a mental ability to conceive of science - it is a result of human imagination.

Vox Day's demolition of Darwin's Theory of Evolution

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