Vote: what is the best argument against fine tuning

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Go for post above where I explained the relation of life and entropy better.

If you mean, "However INSIDE the body there is no chemical equilbrium", so what? that's why metabolism works. The inside of the body isn't a closed system, so it doesn't support any claim of violating the 2nd Law.

In any case, trying to claim a violation in a closed space and/or for an arbitrarily short period is to misunderstand thermodynamics - it's called statistical mechanics these days because it's statistical.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

An argument that can not be falsified even in theory is unscientific and that is not a matter of opinion.

The WAP isn't an argument. Sorry, I thought I already mentioned that.

If anything, it's a statement of the obvious.

 

[LaraLara]

The inside of the body isn't a closed system, so it doesn't support any claim of violating the 2nd Law..

Where did I say "violate"?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Astrobiology is speculating about life forms that don t require water or carbon but the requirements I stated are the known minimum.

OK; but what you actually said was, "...we know that all MATERIAL life forms should have a metabolism and that requires liquids but not carbon." I was curious to know what metabolisms we know that don't require carbon or that use liquids other than water.

I don't find it as speculative to consider universes that simply have different values to known natural laws (I am at least defining what I am talking about) than stating for example that life could just be anything.

Nobody said life 'could just be anything', but we don't know what life could be - we don't even have a good definition for life on Earth! It's reasonable to speculate that any universe that can support the development of complexity might support some form of life.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Where did I say "violate"?

Post #146, "...life violates this law..."

 

[LaraLara]

Post #146, "...life violates this law..."

That is indeed a slopy formulation of me. When I said "within it's own limits and for a limited time" what I ment by is it can not resist the law of increasing entropy in general". So while I formulated it slopy it should have been visible from the context what I ment. I will nevertheless correct it to not cause more confusion.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That is indeed a slopy formulation of me. When I said "within it's own limits and for a limited time" what I ment by is it can not resist the law of increasing entropy in general". So while I formulated it slopy it should have been visible from the context what I ment.

OK. Many natural systems decrease local entropy at the expense of an increase in overall entropy - so?

 

[LaraLara]

OK. Many natural systems decrease local entropy at the expense of an increase in overall entropy - so?

I was not aware of that. Can you give me examples?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I was not aware of that. Can you give me examples?

Basically, any system that loses heat to its surroundings (cooling magma, water evaporating, crystallization), vortices & eddies (e.g. weather systems, whirlpools, turbulent flow), etc.

 

[LaraLara]

Basically, any system that loses heat to its surroundings (cooling magma, water evaporating, crystallization), vortices & eddies (e.g. weather systems, whirlpools, turbulent flow), etc.

Sorry I might be misunderstanding the concept but loosing heat to it's surounding decreases entropy - where - in the surounding?

 

[toLiJC]

Doesn't mean there is, either.

the true God always tries to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life, even if they don't know there is a God

some scientists have examined physical elementary particles and laws, others have known (that there is a) God - btw, if there is a God, won't it be scientifically incorrect if scientists claim there is no God?!, or if scientists have not proven whether there is a God or not, but claim that they are sure He doesn't exist?!

i don't think that such complicated things as humans, animals, nature, cosmic bodies and structures are self-created - there must be something very huge or rather someone very big that created all those things

of course i am not going to impose anything or (to) intrude on you and others

Blessings

 

[HitchSlap]

the true God always tries to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life, even if they don't know there is a God

some scientists have examined physical elementary particles and laws, others have known (that there is a) God - btw, if there is a God, won't it be scientifically incorrect if scientists claim there is no God?!, or if scientists have not proven whether there is a God or not, but claim that they are sure He doesn't exist?!

i don't think that such complicated things as humans, animals, nature, cosmic bodies and structures are self-created - there must be something very huge or rather someone very big that created all those things

of course i am not going to impose anything or (to) intrude on you and others

Blessings

Incredulity, a real fly in the ointment.

No one's trying to change your beliefs.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Sorry I might be misunderstanding the concept but loosing heat to it's surounding decreases entropy - where - in the surounding?

In the system that cools.

 

[LaraLara]

In the system that cools.

I am to long out of shool. I thought that a hot thing has low entropy and things that cool have high entropy with the universe dying the heat death having the highest entropy?

 

[toLiJC]

Incredulity, a real fly in the ointment.

No one's trying to change your beliefs.

it is not clear whose incredulity/fly in whose ointment it is about - it seems as if someone has no other business but to lurk in a christian forum

Blessings

 

[HitchSlap]

it is not clear whose incredulity/fly in whose ointment it is about - it seems as if someone has no other business but to lurk in a christian forum

Blessings

Also seems as if you've run out of valid points.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I am to long out of shool. I thought that a hot thing has low entropy and things that cool have high entropy with the universe dying the heat death having the highest entropy?

No. Taking disorder as a crude measure of entropy (the number of system micro-states that give the same macro-state), hot things are more disordered than cool things, but heat-death is maximum disorder (all micro-states give the same macro-state). See Entropy.

 

[toLiJC]

Also seems as if you've run out of valid points.

ok, give your meaningful point, i have always revealed all my cards, but not everyone else has been so honest to reveal theirs - i don't mean/talk about duels/rivalry, but if anyone is really concerned about the solution to problems and wants to discuss this with me, i am inclined/ready to give all of myself in such a serious discussion

Blessings

 

[LaraLara]

No. Taking disorder as a crude measure of entropy (the number of system micro-states that give the same macro-state), hot things are more disordered than cool things, but heat-death is maximum disorder (all micro-states give the same macro-state). See Entropy.

Sorry I need to increase the dose of my meds to understand that. See you tomorrow

 

[Willis Gravning]

Some of the physics of this universe seems to be preprogrammed to create life. What is your favourite argument against such a line of thought? You can mention several arguments of course but I would like to know which one you prefere.

Ich denke es scheint fein abgestimmte fur leben weil es ist shoen leben...ganz alles.