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Voluntary Euthanasia

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they do not consider the potential consequences.

Who specifically are you talking about here?

In re to those high profile cases here in the UK. It would be remiss of me not to state that people in such situations have been of very sound mind and in no way shape or form, would want to be patronized into thinking they haven't thought through the potential consequences. That equally applies to their immediate loved ones.

I'll simply reiterate what I said before. If there is evidence to suggest that where it is legal, that there is/has been problems. Then I'm all for seeing the evidence. There are potential consequences in all medical procedures/interventions. If one is both aware and consenting, then surely there needs to be a more open discussion about it.
 
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Paradoxum

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God and His Word are absolute truth, why else do you think that evangelical Christians are so unpopular!

Are they? Thought there were a darn lot of them in the US :p

Job 1:21 -- the Lord gives life, the Lord takes it away.

Though in Job it was the Satan that kill the people.

No, God isn't in cancer and God does not give people cancer. He may allow the possibility of someone developing cancer, though.

Nothing can happen in the world unless God permits it.

I agree that God can permit things, but I think that God always permits nature of work by the laws He put in place. If someone can only die after God permits it at a certain time that must mean that to even be able to kill oneself God must permit it.
 
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SithDoughnut

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God and His Word are absolute truth, why else do you think that evangelical Christians are so unpopular!

You claim absolute truth. Not only that, you claim to define a specific god. If you are unpopular, it's due to unnecessary arrogance, nothing more.
 
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You claim absolute truth. Not only that, you claim to define a specific god. If you are unpopular, it's due to unnecessary arrogance, nothing more.

So, Christians have been arrogant for about 2000 years. Interesting! I suggest that you read the Book of Acts and church history for the truth.
 
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Eirlysa

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I agree that God can permit things, but I think that God always permits nature of work by the laws He put in place. If someone can only die after God permits it at a certain time that must mean that to even be able to kill oneself God must permit it.

Yes, that's correct. Think of it this way- God has a plan for the whole of His creation and each individual from the moment of their conception - God's purposeful Will. God desires only our good and thus our human perfection.

God's permissive Will -- that which refers to what God allows to happen in the world. I mean, God allows for sinful behaviour to happen even though it is not what he desires.

Why would God allow this?

God loves us so much that he respects our freedom. Evidented by the fact that we have free Will. So, God lovingly allows us to either choose or reject his will for our lives. When man sins, he freely rejects God's will. God permits this to happen as a consequence of the freedom he gave to man, even though it is not what God wants.

From the Catechism of the Catholic church:

Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it. (CCC 311)

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

So, God does permit people to end their lives, although it is contary to the Will of God. Ultimate rejection of God's love and will leads to one place.. and that place is Hell. God doesn't send people to Hell, though, they freely choose it and out of love, God respects their wishes.

Again, the CCC (2280): Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

(2281) Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

However, because God is merciful, we must remember..

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

(2283) We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Therefore, I believe that euthanasia -- or assisted suicide -- is wrong and contary to not just the love, will, and law of God, but also to the natural law.

And those considering it out of fear of living their lives, whatever the circumstances, must be given support, help, and love and prayers - not carted off to be killed as though their life has no meaning anymore.

Remember, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear." - 1 John 4:8.
 
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(2283) We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear." - 1 John 4:8.

Where in God's Word, The Holy Bible can you support such an assumption from?

Furthermore the verse that you quote form 1 Jn does not apply to non- Christians. The letter was written to Christians then and now, and cannot and should not be removed from its original context, to do so is to give non-Christians false hope!!
 
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There is no decent or humane reason to ban voluntary euthanasia for people who want to end their suffering.

There is, if you take into account how many people experience suicidal ideation while suffering from depression. Encouraging people to kill themselves just because they're depressed is immoral and irresponsible! Is human life not precious to you?
 
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Eirlysa

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Furthermore the verse that you quote form 1 Jn does not apply to non- Christians. The letter was written to Christians then and now, and cannot and should not be removed from its original context, to do so is to give non-Christians false hope!!

I quoted that to demonstrate how with God's love fear can be overcome.

It takes a considerable amount of mental, emotional and spiritual anguish for one to perform suicide. The aspect of willfully commiting it is questionable. It is not up to us to judge -- it is up to God. We are not sure what the state of that person's mental health is at the time of death. They could have lost rational thought and therefore the act is not willed.

In Catholic theology (which I mention only to illustrate my point), only mortal sins can separate us from God and for a sin to be mortal, it has to meet three requirements, namely: be a grave matter, committed with full knowledge, and with full consent.

We believe with God's forgiveness, mercy, and understanding that in a case such as a suicide they may not have had "full consent of will" due to their mental state at the time, and thus they would have very little or no culpability for the sin. Although, in the end, it is not up to us but up to God. However, it is comforting to know that the decision is made by a perfect, compassionate, loving God, who sent His only son to die for us.
 
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In Catholic theology...

The word theology means the study or understanding of God, which can only come from the revelation that He has given us, ie through His Word.

Heaven and hell are both evident in God's Word, but nowhere can purgatory be justified, no matter whose theology!! If anyone leaves this life without being reconcilled through Jesus Christ, God's Son the only Saviour, then hell is the only destination. To tell people otherwise is to give false hope.

Jn 3: 16 - 18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
 
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SithDoughnut

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There is, if you take into account how many people experience suicidal ideation while suffering from depression. Encouraging people to kill themselves just because they're depressed is immoral and irresponsible! Is human life not precious to you?

Who was advocating encouraging people? I would want a system that actively discourages people from euthanasia, in order to ensure that they really want it. Human life is important, but why value that over the people who are forced to suffer through it?

We may disagree, but please don't imply that I actively want people to die.
 
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Eirlysa

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The word theology means the study or understanding of God, which can only come from the revelation that He has given us, ie through His Word.

Yes, through His word... and His church, Her teachings, and the natural law. As a Catholic, I wholeheartedly reject sola scriptura, but that's another topic entirely.

Heaven and hell are both evident in God's Word, but nowhere can ..
Neither can the trinity.. so are you saying that you don't believe in that either?

If anyone leaves this life without being reconcilled through Jesus Christ, God's Son the only Saviour, then hell is the only destination. To tell people otherwise is to give false hope.

But how do you know who has been reconciled and who hasn't? I mean, you're not God, are you? How can anyone but God know people's minds, hearts, intentions?

but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."[/I]

God desires that all men be saved and He pours out His graces upon the whole world. If, say, there was a nice agnostic person who tried but just couldn't believe in a God, but tried to live a decent and moral life and followed his conscience to the best of his ability - would he go to hell upon death? Not necessarily.

He may be condemned if he knew the Truth and ignored it to continue his life of sin. This is the unforgivable sin that is talked about in the Bible.

As he would have co-operated, to the best of his ability, then he wouldn't necessarily be condemned. If God decided to save him, then he would be saved - as we all are - through Jesus's sacrifice on the cross - as Jesus says "No one comes to the father except through me", without even actually realising it. An expression of faith does not always have to be verbal. God sees what is written on a person's heart.

This is also true for people who die, never having heard of Jesus.
 
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Paradoxum

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Yes, that's correct. Think of it this way- God has a plan for the whole of His creation and each individual from the moment of their conception - God's purposeful Will. God desires only our good and thus our human perfection.

Lets assume that's true.

God's permissive Will -- that which refers to what God allows to happen in the world. I mean, God allows for sinful behaviour to happen even though it is not what he desires.

Why would God allow this?

God loves us so much that he respects our freedom. Evidented by the fact that we have free Will. So, God lovingly allows us to either choose or reject his will for our lives. When man sins, he freely rejects God's will. God permits this to happen as a consequence of the freedom he gave to man, even though it is not what God wants.

From the Catechism of the Catholic church:

Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it. (CCC 311)

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

Sure.

So, God does permit people to end their lives, although it is contary to the Will of God. Ultimate rejection of God's love and will leads to one place.. and that place is Hell. God doesn't send people to Hell, though, they freely choose it and out of love, God respects their wishes.

None of that follows from what you said before. It is hardly a rejection of Gods love. It could even be painted as going home, like the prodigal son. Once one has done all they can on earth without suffering with the pigs with no to little chance of escape, maybe its time to go home to heaven. There's no shame in coming home from the front line after being severely and permanently injured.

Again, the CCC (2280): Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

I am grateful for my life and treasure it, but if I become too weak to continue I hope to give it back to the owner. If He is displeased with the weakness in which He made me then it is for me to take the punishment, not others to force me to live.

(2281) Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

It is also the natural inclination of humans to see that some things are more important than life, and that it will come to an end one day. Jesus demonstrates this in His wilful death. The mistake is to think I am merely my life. In the case of euthanasia, by that time there is little more that one can do to benefit it. The family may wish you to live, but if they cannot understand your suffering then they are being selfish. In the case of children it is different, but I don't know if seeing their parent dying slowly and painfully or losing their mind is much better for them.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

What would one being living for if one has no responsibility with no hope of its return? If one cannot make a choice, and life is made up of choices, what's the point?

And those considering it out of fear of living their lives, whatever the circumstances, must be given support, help, and love and prayers - not carted off to be killed as though their life has no meaning anymore.

I'm saying it is my choice to die, not for others to. It has nothing to do with being 'carted off to be killed'.

Remember, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear." - 1 John 4:8.

In that case I don't fear death or Judgement so leave me to meet them if I so wish. :)
 
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Eirlysa said, Yes, through His word... and His church, Her teachings, and the natural law. As a Catholic, I wholeheartedly reject sola scriptura, but that's another topic entirely.

The churches teachings can only come through God's Word!


Neither can the trinity.. so are you saying that you don't believe in that either?

The trinity is seen with several references to the 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit throughout the NT and more subtly in the OT.


But how do you know who has been reconciled and who hasn't? I mean, you're not God, are you? How can anyone but God know people's minds, hearts, intentions?

As a born again Christian and bible teacher, it is my duty to ensure that people have the absolute truth which will equip them to make the right decision, the remainder is between them and God.


God desires that all men be saved and He pours out His graces upon the whole world. If, say, there was a nice agnostic person who tried but just couldn't believe in a God, but tried to live a decent and moral life and followed his conscience to the best of his ability - would he go to hell upon death? Not necessarily.

He may be condemned if he knew the Truth and ignored it to continue his life of sin. This is the unforgivable sin that is talked about in the Bible.

As he would have co-operated, to the best of his ability, then he wouldn't necessarily be condemned. If God decided to save him, then he would be saved - as we all are - through Jesus's sacrifice on the cross - as Jesus says "No one comes to the father except through me", without even actually realising it. An expression of faith does not always have to be verbal. God sees what is written on a person's heart.

This is also true for people who die, never having heard of Jesus.

God desires that all people be saved, that does not mean that they will. As you righly said in a previous post, people choose to go to hell. No-one will stand before a Holy and just God and say "You never told me".

You seemed to have avoided Scripture references to the doctrine of purgatory!!

Acts 2: 38 "“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

Without having been reconcilled to God through Jesus in this life, and receiving the Holy Spirit no-one can stand before God as they will have died in their sin. The Holy God cannot have unrepentant, unregenerated sinners in His heaven.
 
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Eirlysa

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I am grateful for my life and treasure it, but if I become too weak to continue I hope to give it back to the owner. If He is displeased with the weakness in which He made me then it is for me to take the punishment, not others to force me to live.

Of course we have choices - that is the very nature of free-will. But God never gives anyone more than they can handle with His grace. God alone knows the time and place and circumstances of someone's death. To willfully take your own life before that time is like saying, "God I don't trust you or your plans for my life."

Being a Christian is to suffer. Redemptive suffering is to say, "God, I give you my pain that you may use it for your glory." When Jesus said to us, take up your cross and follow me, He didn't say it would be easy. In fact, He said it would be very hard. You must die to self. You must descrease so that He may increase, and that involves suffering. If you offer that suffering up to God, he can use it for the betterment of both your soul and others.

Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself. - 1 Corinthians 6:19.

What can be better than life? It is the greatest gift that anyone can have bestowed upon them. We do not own our lives and our time here is short. If God is love, as the bible tells us, and if our sufferings and prayers can benefit other people or bring glory to God, then we, as Christians, should let them. As Jesus said: no greater love has this than a man who lays down his life for his friends.
 
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Eirlysa

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The churches teachings can only come through God's Word!

Yes, I agree. God's word as revealed in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The trinity is seen with several references to the 3 persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit throughout the NT and more subtly in the OT.

But the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible, is it? Just like the word "purgatory" isn't in the Bible, but I could - if this thread was about purgatory, and not about something entirely unrelated which is why I'm not - post references to the doctrine of purgatory in scripture.

Without having been reconcilled to God through Jesus in this life, and receiving the Holy Spirit no-one can stand before God as they will have died in their sin. The Holy God cannot have unrepentant, unregenerated sinners in His heaven.

Personally, I believe that though God is just, he also merciful. And such..

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847).
 
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Eirlysa said, Yes, I agree. God's word as revealed in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The problem with tradition is that it is corrupted by sinful human beings, hence the reformation!!


But the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible, is it? Just like the word "purgatory" isn't in the Bible, but I could - if this thread was about purgatory, and not about something entirely unrelated which is why I'm not - post references to the doctrine of purgatory in scripture.

Go on on :thumbsup: give it your best go!


Personally, I believe that though God is just, he also merciful. And such..

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

Unbiblical nonesense
 
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Eirlysa

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Eirlysa said, Yes, I agree. God's word as revealed in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

The problem with tradition is that it is corrupted by sinful human beings, hence the reformation!!

I reject that too. ;)


But the word "trinity" isn't in the Bible, is it? Just like the word "purgatory" isn't in the Bible, but I could - if this thread was about purgatory, and not about something entirely unrelated which is why I'm not - post references to the doctrine of purgatory in scripture.

Go on on :thumbsup: give it your best go!

Not in here. If you want to discuss the doctrine of purgatory, make a separate thread and I shall gladly. This thread is about euthanasia, not the doctrine of purgatory.

Personally, I believe that though God is just, he also merciful. And such..

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)

Unbiblical nonesense

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you, but I'd appreciate if you could refrain from calling my beliefs - which, last time I checked, were considered "Christian" by this website in as much as Catholics are considered Christians here, nonsense. Thanks.
 
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