Voicing Valid Concerns vs Verbal Bashing

[Bruno]

Originally posted by seebs
There's a big difference between two people telling each other "well, I think your teachings are wrong, and I hope you and God get that straightened out", and remaining friends, and two people telling each other "no, *you're* not really Christian". I think the former is healthy, and probably inevitable with the diversity of Christians out there. I think the latter is a Very Bad Thing. I try very hard not to do it.

This is a VERY good point, seebs. Judging is not up to us, but God.

 

[Stormy]

You guys are cracking me up!!!

There is no way to make a thread against others for judging without yourself judging them for judging. LOL

I will go get my popcorn and soda this is getting good.

Next performer ....

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by coastie
Here's my take.

I'll let others assert blame on an individual. However, have I the right to defame and denounce someone for their wrong doings when I also sin.

What did Jesus say about judging people? "Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone?" I believe were his words.

I know that I am not sinless. Now you all can "what if" this to death.

But honestly, how kind is it, and how is it showing God's love to denounce a person, even when you are not there.

I'm sure you'll pick some verse to support your views, and I'll pick another to contrast your verse. But honestly, consider the commandment that Jesus said was the greatest commandment. "Love one another."

It couldn't be simpler than that.

Part of loving someone  is telling them when they are doing something stupid.  I remember a friend of mine who when I was about to do something stupid gave me a good piece of her mind (in a Christ like way) and it helped me see the folly of my ways.  After that we were closer than before because I knew she cared enough about me to risk our firendship to help me out. 

Also this is why I posted the scripture in Matthew 18.  It was what Jesus said to do when you are in a situation where you have to go to a brother in sin.  There is a good guide to follow.


Matt 18:15-17
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 "But if he does not listen {to you}  take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
(NAU)

 

 

[Apposta]

Originally posted by Br. Max
elder - I agree.

However I think its a great falasy of this age that we are forbidden to judge. Christ warns us - JUDGE NOT that you be not judged.

Excellent!  We are told, "Judge ye the members of the church," and "Mark those who cause division among you."

One of the demi-gods of the Gospel of the Happy Face is the god of tolerance of all and everything. 

The Spirit commended the Church in Smyrna because it hated the works of the Nicolaitans (considered judging by practicers of the Happy Face Gospel.)  Jesus condemned the religious leaders of his day for hypocrisy (judging by preachers of the Happy Face Gospel.)  Paul opposed Peter to his face (judging by advocates of the Happy Face Gospel.)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
 

You're forgetting the rest of the verse -

Matthew 7

<SUP>1</SUP>"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. <SUP>2</SUP>For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

&nbsp;

command NOT to judge, but a warning that becareful who and how you judge for you will be judged eqaully.&nbsp; If you condemn a man because he is caught in an adulterous afair and you yourself have a woman on the side and have just not been caught, you have already condemned yourself by your harsh judgement of your brother.&nbsp;

Oh, OK, I did not forget it, I just did not understand the application of what you were saying.

That is very, very, true. And, I believe goes beyond even if one is doing the same exact thing or not. . .whatever measure you use that same measure will be used on you. IOW if I show little mercy and many distructive words, then when it's my turn, I will receive little mercy and many distructive words.

GOOD POINT BR MAX, thanks for bringing it out.

Quaffer

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Stormy
Susan:Just wanted to say that I understand what you said. I think it was an excellent post.

We judge people every day in our courts. It is right and good.

We do not judge their souls.

I would judge by some of the post on this thread that many of you just get a kick out of arguing.

Prov 6:16-19 (amplified)
These six things the Lord hates, indeed, seven are an abomination to Him:

1. A proud look [the spirit that makes one overestimate himself and underestimate others, Are we possibly overestimating ourselves over others when we shout out their failures?

2. A lying tongue, Are we not lying, when we don't have ALL the facts?

3. Hands that shed innocent blood Are we not, possibly shedding innocent blood when we report things without ALL the facts?

4. A heart that manufactures wicked thoughts and plans Are we not manufacturing wicked thoughts when we dig, and dig, and dig until we have all the dirt we need?

5. Feet that are swift in running to evil Are we not swiftly running to evil to hear the latest dirt on our least favorite evangelist, etc.

6. A false witness who breathes out lies Are we not being a false witness when we have not sat down with the person ourselves to get the details?

7. He who sows discord among his brethren Are we not sowing discord among the brethren by creating fear and distrust among the brethren of other brethren?



Quaffer

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by coastie
Here's my take.

I'll let others assert blame on an individual. However, have I the right to defame and denounce someone for their wrong doings when I also sin.

What did Jesus say about judging people? "Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone?" I believe were his words.

I know that I am not sinless. Now you all can "what if" this to death.

But honestly, how kind is it, and how is it showing God's love to denounce a person, even when you are not there.

I'm sure you'll pick some verse to support your views, and I'll pick another to contrast your verse. But honestly, consider the commandment that Jesus said was the greatest commandment. "Love one another."

It couldn't be simpler than that.

Yes Coastie, it is very simple, but Ohhhhhh so difficult for some.&nbsp; It's not impossible though.

Here's what James 3 says&nbsp;about it:

James 3 (Amplified)
<SUP>1</SUP>NOT MANY [of you] should become teachers&nbsp;( self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation].
<SUP>2</SUP>For we all often stumble and fall and offend in many things. And if anyone does not offend in speech [never says the wrong things], he is a fully developed character and a perfect man, able to control his whole body and to curb his entire nature.
<SUP>3</SUP>If we set bits in the horses' mouths to make them obey us, we can turn their whole bodies about.
<SUP>4</SUP>Likewise, look at the ships: though they are so great and are driven by rough winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the impulse of the helmsman determines.
<SUP>5</SUP>Even so the tongue is a little member, and it can boast of great things. See how much wood or how great a forest a tiny spark can set ablaze!
<SUP>6</SUP>And the tongue is a fire. [The tongue is a] world of wickedness set among our members, contaminating and depraving the whole body and setting on fire the wheel of birth (the cycle of man's nature), being itself ignited by hell (Gehenna).
<SUP>7</SUP>For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea animal, can be tamed and has been tamed by human genius (nature).
<SUP>8</SUP>But the human tongue can be tamed by no man. It is a restless (undisciplined, irreconcilable) evil, full of deadly poison.
<SUP>9</SUP>With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God's likeness!
<SUP>10</SUP>Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing. These things, my brethren, ought not to be so.
<SUP>11</SUP>Does a fountain send forth [simultaneously] from the same opening fresh water and bitter?
<SUP>12</SUP>Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can a salt spring furnish fresh water.
<SUP>13</SUP>Who is there among you who is wise and intelligent? Then let him by his noble living show forth his [good] works with the [unobtrusive] humility [which is the proper attribute] of true wisdom.
<SUP>14</SUP>But if you have bitter jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry, selfish ambition) in your hearts, do not pride yourselves on it and thus be in defiance of and false to the Truth.
<SUP>15</SUP>This [superficial] wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual (animal), even devilish (demoniacal).
<SUP>16</SUP>For wherever there is jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry and selfish ambition), there will also be confusion (unrest, disharmony, rebellion) and all sorts of evil and vile practices.
<SUP>17</SUP>But the wisdom from above is first of all pure (undefiled); then it is peace-loving, courteous (considerate, gentle). [It is willing to] yield to reason, full of compassion and good fruits; it is wholehearted and straightforward, impartial and unfeigned (free from doubts, wavering, and insincerity).
<SUP>18</SUP>And the harvest of righteousness (of conformity to God's will in thought and deed) is [the fruit of the seed] sown in peace by those who work for and make peace [in themselves and in others, that peace which means concord, agreement, and harmony between individuals, with undisturbedness, in a peaceful mind free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

No man can tame the tongue but with God nothing is impossible.&nbsp; When we daily lay down our lives before Him, submitting to Him and His correction then our tongues will begin to come more under His control and we will bless more than we curse.

Thanks Coastie, for pointing out that we are to love one another. Because that's the only way that men will know that we love God.

Quaffer

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&nbsp;

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Like I said, let the one who is without sin cast the first stone. Any takers?"

sorry Andrew, this is not a call to accept false teachers, I'll keep my salt thanks, if you wanna loose yours that's up to you.

Outspoken,

Nothing was said about acceptance.&nbsp; The point of the thread is "voicing valid concerns vs verbal bashing".&nbsp;

We don't have to accept everything we hear but there is a Godly way&nbsp;and an ungodly&nbsp;way to voice it.&nbsp; To scream and throw stones was the way the Pharasees did it and is not one of Godliness.

Quaffer

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Andrew
Well let's just get straight to the bottom of this.

I suspect that many who support calling other Christians false teachers/prophets, con-artists, liars etc are basically arguing in this line becos they have to justify their past and present deeds of denouncing and condemning WOFers, those who are for prosperity (eg prayer of Jabez book etc), those who preach healing, faith etc, for such insults have usu been hurled at this cat of preachers.

eg They have and will continue to condemn preachers like the Copelands, Hagin, Benny Hinn etc and they wont back down cause then they'd have to say they're sorry.

What amazes me then, is the double standards they hold. You dont see them doing the same to say the Catholics here, and least not with the same degree of boldness &amp; libel.

Why? Becos the Catholics are here and are able to defend themselves and report posters to the administrators if, for example, someone calls them a false teacher or con-artist. People like Benny Hinn, Copelands etc are not here to defend themselves so they "dare" to do it.

I bet that if there's a WOF section in this forum, just like there's a Catholic section with Catholic mods, then these people who justify calling those who preach prosperity, healing, faith etc wont really dare do what they do.



so if a Christian comes here is teaches something you regard as not right or false, then you can denouce him as a false teacher? hhmmm wonder why that doesnt go on here with all the sharp disagreements.

eg: so why not denounce the Catholics? or those who preach that baptism is neccess for salvation, or those who believe OSAS or dont believe OSAS, limited atonement, unlimted atonement....etc.

What authority or right do we have to denounce someone as a false teacher, which the Bible categorises as non-Christians? IOW if we lable someone as a false teacher, then we are also judging their salvation and intentions and calling them unsaved. Are you ordained by your church or some higher organisation to be the watchdog?

Do you know for sure this person is not a Christian and out to lead the sheep astray?

this is my last post here as the double-standards and hypocrisy just disgust me!

I agree with this thought Andrew and please don't leave us.&nbsp;

There are alot of posters here that post things that I dissagree with.&nbsp; I personally believe they are wrong and they are teaching it wrong.&nbsp;But to call them a false teacher would be judging them and calling them unsaved.&nbsp;&nbsp;

None of us&nbsp;have the WHOLE scoop on ALL the scripture. Who knows what things any of us are&nbsp;teaching, that may be wrong.&nbsp; I don't believe I am teaching anything wrong.&nbsp; I have given scripture to everything that I have said.&nbsp; I try not to make any statement I cannot back up with scripture.&nbsp; But yet,&nbsp;I've been called a false teacher.

Maybe we all need to take a closer look at the Word and find out what God defines as a false teacher.&nbsp; Is it really someone who after much prayer and study only shares what they understand it&nbsp;to mean.&nbsp; And merely because it is different from yours, that makes them a false teacher.&nbsp; I don't think so!

I love God deeply.&nbsp; I spend a lot of time praying and reading and crying out to Him for changes in my heart.&nbsp; When I put something down I have thought about it long and hard.

That does not mean you cannot dissagree with me . . but can we not reason together without the verbal bashing.

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Andrew
so if a Christian comes here is teaches something you regard as not right or false, then you can denouce him as a false teacher? hhmmm wonder why that doesnt go on here with all the sharp disagreements.

wHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF... case by case basis I can see that there is room to slide. Making an all encompassing statement will always result in a "what if" or two.

Andrew, I think you need to read my first post in this thread... the one you quoted is an addition to miy first.

eg: so why not denounce the Catholics? or those who preach that baptism is neccess for salvation, or those who believe OSAS or dont believe OSAS, limited atonement, unlimted atonement....etc.

What authority or right do I have to denounce them. However, if someone tells me that I should only read the first three chapters of Genesis and disregard the rest as uninspired by God and full of the devils lies, (like former member 7-pointed-star did) then I think you'd have the right... however, I too don't know where the line lies since any one person could be incorrect about an interpretation of a verse.

I don't want that responsiblity, so I usually opt out.

What authority or right do we have to denounce someone as a false teacher, which the Bible categorises as non-Christians? IOW if we lable someone as a false teacher, then we are also judging their salvation and intentions and calling them unsaved. Are you ordained by your church or some higher organisation to be the watchdog?

Couldn't have said it better myself... actually, I would have said it nicer. Don't let yourself get so angry over this. I actually agree with you aside from the fact that you are insulting me.

Do you know for sure this person is not a Christian and out to lead the sheep astray?

All I have are very basic guidelines, and furthering the argument, if no one has the authority to denounce anyone, then so be it, but I haven't seen any proof of that other than your angry words.

This is very disappointing to me too, because I have always enjoyed reading your posts.

this is my last post here as the double-standards and hypocrisy just disgust me!

I think you may just be having a bad day. I don't see how my statement coudl have offended you, especially since we agree on many things, but I really don't see this as any reason for you to leave.

Zach

 

[coastie]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Part of loving someone&nbsp; is telling them when they are doing something stupid.&nbsp; I remember a friend of mine who when I was about to do something stupid gave me a good piece of her mind (in a Christ like way) and it helped me see the folly of my ways.&nbsp; After that we were closer than before because I knew she cared enough about me to risk our firendship to help me out.&nbsp;

Also this is why I posted the scripture in Matthew 18.&nbsp; It was what Jesus said to do when you are in a situation where you have to go to a brother in sin.&nbsp; There is a good guide to follow.


Matt 18:15-17
15&nbsp;"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16&nbsp;"But if he does not listen {to you}&nbsp; take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17&nbsp;"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
(NAU)

&nbsp;

Different situation altogether. helping a brotha out is one thing, defamation is altogether different.

Zach

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by coastie
Different situation altogether. helping a brotha out is one thing, defamation is altogether different.

Zach

huh?&nbsp; I am confused.&nbsp;

 

[Outspoken]

"Nothing was said about acceptance. The point of the thread is "voicing valid concerns vs verbal bashing". "

That's exactly what was said. Haven't you heard the greatest evil is when good mean do nothing? That's acceptance by default. Sorry, I will speak out when I see false teachings and encourage others to do so.

 

[coastie]

Sorry Blackhawk, what I was saying was that I agree with what you said. I was strictly referring to defaming someone, not pointing someone's sin to them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Nothing was said about acceptance. The point of the thread is "voicing valid concerns vs verbal bashing". "

That's exactly what was said. Haven't you heard the greatest evil is when good mean do nothing? That's acceptance by default. Sorry, I will speak out when I see false teachings and encourage others to do so.

And in that post I also said,

We don't have to accept everything we hear but there is a Godly way and an ungodly way to voice it. To scream and throw stones was the way the Pharasees did it and is not one of Godliness.

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Outspoken
Sorry, I will speak out when I see false teachings and encourage others to do so.

Yes but what do we call false teaching? Do we call every little difference in doctrine false teaching?

&nbsp;

I would say that false teaching is that which would place a soul in danger of damnation. Such a teaching would be that Christ is not God, That he was not risen bodily from the dead, That Satan is Christ’s brother . . . etc. I would not call a difference over earthly authority one which could place a mans soul in danger of damnation.

&nbsp;

Pax et bonum

&nbsp;

God bless

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
Yes but what do we call false teaching? Do we call every little difference in doctrine false teaching?

&nbsp;

I would say that false teaching is that which would place a soul in danger of damnation. Such a teaching would be that Christ is not God, That he was not risen bodily from the dead, That Satan is Christ’s brother . . . etc. I would not call a difference over earthly authority one which could place a mans soul in danger of damnation.

&nbsp;

Pax et bonum

&nbsp;

God bless

Bro Max,

I would agree with you on this.&nbsp; We seem to be calling things that just don't fit us or the church we attend as a "false doctrine".&nbsp; And that is what I am sometimes discouraged over.

I believe scripture to be quite clear about the way we speak to each other.&nbsp; What we reap we will sow.&nbsp; The measure that we deal out is the same measure that will be dealt back to us.&nbsp; By our words we will be judged.&nbsp; By HIM!&nbsp; I would think that alone would make us more cautious.

It reminds me of the picture on&nbsp;a little magazine put out several years ago by Last Days Ministries.&nbsp; It was a picture of an open mouth and there were little soldiers&nbsp;standing guard over the tongue.&nbsp; I don't remember the caption but right now I'm thinking of that verse in Psalm's where David says, "let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in Your sight O God."&nbsp; I know I need to pray that prayer frequently.

Thanks for sharing Bro Max,

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"I would say that false teaching is that which would place a soul in danger of damnation."

I would say it is more then that, it is anything that you lead young ones, in spirit as well as body, away from God. Better to tie a mill stone around your neck remember?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"I would say that false teaching is that which would place a soul in danger of damnation."

I would say it is more then that, it is anything that you lead young ones, in spirit as well as body, away from God. Better to tie a mill stone around your neck remember?

I would think that Christians calling other Christians names would be leading people away from God

Quaffer

 

[Outspoken]

"I would think that Christians calling other Christians names would be leading people away from God "

We are addressing their teachings, not them personally. Big difference.