Voicing Valid Concerns vs Verbal Bashing

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Susan
you had to have evidence.

What type of evidence are you referring to?  Are you the third party?  IOW someone told you they do this?  Is the only knowledge you have of them based on what others say?  This question would include CNN?  Or what you've seen of them on TV?  Or a disgruntled employee, etc. ? How do you know the ones telling you are telling the truth?  How do you know they are reporting ALL the story?  How do you know what parts of the interview ended up on the cutting room floor?   How do you know it was not the parts where legitimate explanations were given?

OK, so what if the person admits to it?  What then?  Do we tar and feather them and hang them from a noose for the world to see how much we love each other? 

That does not mean that people who really are guilty should not be dealt with.  However, unless we are in direct contact with that person and God has put us in position to do so, we are only commanded to pray.

Scripture says "they will know you are Christians by your love". 

I know that I've been deeply hurt and seen others deeply hurt by so-called Christians speaking things they knew nothing of.  And from browsing through some of the forums where the unsaved post they've seen the same.

Quaffer

 

 

[Susan]

The evidence that I have against Ponzi and such schemes is that the man was tried and found guilty of fraud, that it is impossible for such investment schemes to work in a way that profits anyone except the con artist and the few people involved in it, and that there is enough proof of this since the scam has been practiced many other times.

There is a difference between judging one's actions and judging one's soul.

Also, some actions are objectively harmful in and of themselves and can be judged as such. Lying and stealing would fall under that criteria.

My point that I have made elsewhere is that in such a case, where there is much objective evidence of actual, unrepentant wrongdoing, that we do not personally have to speak to the person about it before we proclaim their actions to be wrong.

I have raised the question before: if someone proclaimed that they were gay (or were "outed" as such) would you give them as many chances as someone who proclaimed "I was lying" or whom against there was objective evidence proving fraud?

 

[dignitized]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Bro Max

I'm not quite following the point you're making.  It sounds like you're contradicting yourself.  You say you think the "forbidden to judge is a falacy", but then you quote scripture where Christ tells us not to judge. 

What am I missing? 

 

You're forgetting the rest of the verse -

Matthew 7

<SUP>1</SUP>"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. <SUP>2</SUP>For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

&nbsp;

command NOT to judge, but a warning that becareful who and how you judge for you will be judged eqaully.&nbsp; If you condemn a man because he is caught in an adulterous afair and you yourself have a woman on the side and have just not been caught, you have already condemned yourself by your harsh judgement of your brother.&nbsp;

 

[Andrew]

Excellent posts Greeter and Quaffer.

Ro 14:4 -- Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Joh 8:7 -- So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And as Br Max said, even if we want to judge, then lets make sure we've not done the same sins ourselves, in thought, words or deeds.

So who has not cheated (eg do u always keep to the speed limit?), taught something abt scripture that was not right (so all your doctrines are correct and all others are wrong?), lusted in your heart, etc. -- let that Christian cast the first stone. Any takers?

 

[Outspoken]

"So if we believe someone is off in their doctrine we just name them a false prophet? "

1. if you have evidience as in the context of this example, yes.
2. bearing false witness is KNOWING someone is okay and saying they are not..ie FALSE witness. Get your facts straight

"Are we justified as Christians to start calling people names? Or is there any commandments about showing love? "

I'd rather have one person dislike me then have 20 or 10000 believe a false docterine I am my brother's keeper, didn't Cain teach you that?

"Aren't we as Christians supposed to stand out in the world- in a good way? Shouldn't the evidence for any insult be given?"

I agree, I would probably say false teacher because false prophet has connotations to it.

 

[Outspoken]

There is a difference between judging one's actions and judging one's soul.

Great point, we ARE to recognize trees by their fruit, and that sounds like just what they are doing.

 

[Andrew]

if what the proponents of judging other Christians are saying is okay, then I guess we can call each other false prophets so long as we deem the other party's doctrine to be wrong. So if I disagree with you and I can "prove" it, then its okay for me to call you a false prophet/teacher/liar/con-artist whatever. Is that what we want to promote here? I dont think so. Like I said, let the one who is without sin cast the first stone. Any takers?

Jesus said you'll "recognise" them by their fruit. but he didnt say to "condemn" them by their fruit.

Also, false prophets/teachers are not Christians according to the Bible. So you wanna be careful who you are calling a false prophet. Just becos you dont agree with a minister's message doesnt give u the right to label him a false teacher for you are then judging his salvation.

 

[Blackhawk]

Matthew 18 has a lot to say about church government.&nbsp;


Matt 18:15-35
15&nbsp;"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16&nbsp;"But if he does not listen {to you}&nbsp; take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17&nbsp;"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I believe above is the way to handle problem people in the church.&nbsp;

21&nbsp;Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22&nbsp;Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23&nbsp;"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24&nbsp;"When he had begun to settle {them}&nbsp; one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25&nbsp;"But since he did not have {the means} to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26&nbsp;"So the slave fell {to the ground} and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27&nbsp;"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28&nbsp;"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and {began} to choke {him}&nbsp; saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29&nbsp;"So his fellow slave fell {to the ground} and {began} to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30&nbsp;"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31&nbsp;"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32&nbsp;"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33&nbsp;"Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34&nbsp;"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35&nbsp;"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
(NAU)

And here is the other side. If the person repents then we need to forgive them.&nbsp; We need to be wise as serpents but ready to forgive because of how much God has forgiven us.&nbsp;

 

[Stormy]

Susan:Just wanted to say that I understand what you said. I think it was an excellent post.

We judge people every day in our courts. It is right and good.

We do not judge their souls.

I would judge by some of the post on this thread that many of you just get a kick out of arguing.

 

[coastie]

Here's my take.

I'll let others assert blame on an individual. However, have I the right to defame and denounce someone for their wrong doings when I also sin.

What did Jesus say about judging people? "Let he who is with out sin cast the first stone?" I believe were his words.

I know that I am not sinless. Now you all can "what if" this to death.

But honestly, how kind is it, and how is it showing God's love to denounce a person, even when you are not there.

I'm sure you'll pick some verse to support your views, and I'll pick another to contrast your verse. But honestly, consider the commandment that Jesus said was the greatest commandment. "Love one another."

It couldn't be simpler than that.

 

[Outspoken]

"Like I said, let the one who is without sin cast the first stone. Any takers?"

sorry Andrew, this is not a call to accept false teachers, I'll keep my salt thanks, if you wanna loose yours that's up to you.

 

[coastie]

and one more thing... false teachers need to be denounced, but slandering somoeone is much different than denouncing their teachings.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by coastie
and one more thing... false teachers need to be denounced, but slandering somoeone is much different than denouncing their teachings.

There's a big difference between two people telling each other "well, I think your teachings are wrong, and I hope you and God get that straightened out", and remaining friends, and two people telling each other "no, *you're* not really Christian". I think the former is healthy, and probably inevitable with the diversity of Christians out there. I think the latter is a Very Bad Thing. I try very hard not to do it.

 

[Outspoken]

" two people telling each other "no, *you're* not really Christian"."

and no one has said that thus far. Just don't fall into the complacent catagory seebs.

 

[seebs]

Huh? I was speaking in general, and I'm sure I've seen people accused of not "really" being Christian on the basis of disputes over doctrine. Not speaking to any specific dispute, off the top of my head; I just notice that it happens occasionally.

 

[Susan]

I have seen that happen myself. In fact, go to the CBBS board: there is one hyper-fundamentalist user there who seems to think that *anyone* who disagrees with him is in danger of not being saved and that every issue is potentially salvific.

He has even stated that Billy Graham preaches a false Gospel and is leading people to Hades, based on some things he saw at David Cloud's website.

 

[Outspoken]

"Huh? I was speaking in general"

Oh, so you were just trolling?

 

[Susan]

All right you two, cool it. I do not want to see either of you banned, and this is NOT a place for flaming.

 

[Susan]

 

[Andrew]

Well let's just get straight to the bottom of this.

I suspect that many who support calling other Christians false teachers/prophets, con-artists, liars etc are basically arguing in this line becos they have to justify their past and present deeds of denouncing and condemning WOFers, those who are for prosperity (eg prayer of Jabez book etc), those who preach healing, faith etc, for such insults have usu been hurled at this cat of preachers.

eg They have and will continue to condemn preachers like the Copelands, Hagin, Benny Hinn etc and they wont back down cause then they'd have to say they're sorry.

What amazes me then, is the double standards they hold. You dont see them doing the same to say the Catholics here, and least not with the same degree of boldness & libel.

Why? Becos the Catholics are here and are able to defend themselves and report posters to the administrators if, for example, someone calls them a false teacher or con-artist. People like Benny Hinn, Copelands etc are not here to defend themselves so they "dare" to do it.

I bet that if there's a WOF section in this forum, just like there's a Catholic section with Catholic mods, then these people who justify calling those who preach prosperity, healing, faith etc wont really dare do what they do.

and one more thing... false teachers need to be denounced, but slandering somoeone is much different than denouncing their teachings.

so if a Christian comes here is teaches something you regard as not right or false, then you can denouce him as a false teacher? hhmmm wonder why that doesnt go on here with all the sharp disagreements.

eg: so why not denounce the Catholics? or those who preach that baptism is neccess for salvation, or those who believe OSAS or dont believe OSAS, limited atonement, unlimted atonement....etc.

What authority or right do we have to denounce someone as a false teacher, which the Bible categorises as non-Christians? IOW if we lable someone as a false teacher, then we are also judging their salvation and intentions and calling them unsaved. Are you ordained by your church or some higher organisation to be the watchdog?

Do you know for sure this person is not a Christian and out to lead the sheep astray?

this is my last post here as the double-standards and hypocrisy just disgust me!