Visiting a statue is visiting?

[GrannieAnnie]

I agree with you totally...Iamadopted....I'm an ex Catholic and used to all that stuff with statues and saints....not anymore...Jesus is my only way, and the empty cross represents my risen Lord......

 

[PaladinValer]

Baloney is right. Tee hee.

I must note the different fruits I see on this thread...one side offers complex, logical arguments while the other counters with "tee hee" and short, illogical jabs.

I sure don't need anyone in Heaven to pray for me for I have my Lord intercessing for me and this is the only one that scripture tells us is ever living to do this.

Straw Man. Needing and having are two different things. We are not arguing need; we are arguing have.

We see no where in scripture that there is anyone else doing this.

Transfiguration (Aug 6th)?

No where do we see in scripture that saints intercede on our behalf that have passed out of this life to eternity.

No where do we see in Scripture that God exists are Three Persons equally and eternally of the Same One Substance either.

By your logic, the Trinity is a fraud, Christianity is a load of nonsense, and we need to convert to a different religion since our faith is false.

This is assumption at best.

Its sound logical deduction, not assumption. Premises are not the end, the conclusion is.

These that have passed on are just mortal human beings that could not have changed one spot on a leopards back.

You seem to think that we believe Saints bestow Grace. That's false.

The only reason they are with the Lord is because of Gods grace. Nothing they have done could have saved them. THey lived by Gods grace just as I do.

Straw Man again. We aren't suggesting anything different. If you'd actually care to learn what we believe, perhaps you would understand that your assumptions have brought you to the wrong conclusion about what we believe.

The only one that can change anything is God for it is written that He can even change the hearts of a king. As far as people gathering down here to pray is because were two or three are gathered in His name there He is in the midst of them. Also Jesus taught us that if two of us agree to touching anything here on earth it shall be done by the Father. Notice that Jesus said here on earth.

So answer this: Does the Holy Spirit abandon Christians upon their earthly deaths? Yes or no will do.

I agree with you totally...Iamadopted....I'm an ex Catholic and used to all that stuff with statues and saints....not anymore...Jesus is my only way, and the empty cross represents my risen Lord......

Funny, that is what your former church officially teaches anyhow. If that is the reason why you left, it was for the wrong reason.

 

[IamAdopted]

I must note the different fruits I see on this thread...one side offers complex, logical arguments while the other counters with "tee hee" and short, illogical jabs.



Straw Man. Needing and having are two different things. We are not arguing need; we are arguing have.



Transfiguration (Aug 6th)?



No where do we see in Scripture that God exists are Three Persons equally and eternally of the Same One Substance either.

By your logic, the Trinity is a fraud, Christianity is a load of nonsense, and we need to convert to a different religion since our faith is false.



Its sound logical deduction, not assumption. Premises are not the end, the conclusion is.



You seem to think that we believe Saints bestow Grace. That's false.



Straw Man again. We aren't suggesting anything different. If you'd actually care to learn what we believe, perhaps you would understand that your assumptions have brought you to the wrong conclusion about what we believe.



So answer this: Does the Holy Spirit abandon Christians upon their earthly deaths? Yes or no will do.



Funny, that is what your former church officially teaches anyhow. If that is the reason why you left, it was for the wrong reason.

The transfiguration was Jesus the God man speaking with Moses and Elijah. Now why do you think it was these two He was speaking to? They did not speak to anyone but Christ. When humans pass on to be with the Lord they are with the Lord. Where else are they? They are no longer here on earth with us. In scripture we see The Spirit of God. We see the Father and we see Christ. Three persons making up the Godhead. All three being equally God.

 

[Merciel]

The transfiguration was Jesus the God man speaking with Moses and Elijah. Now why do you think it was these two He was speaking to? They did not speak to anyone but Christ. When humans pass on to be with the Lord they are with the Lord. Where else are they? They are no longer here on earth with us.

And yet, you admit that Moses, who died, still came down to Earth, which means such is possible.

 

[PaladinValer]

The transfiguration was Jesus the God man speaking with Moses and Elijah.

Jesus the God? Are we unduly separating the Hypostaic Union now?

Jesus is God and Human; Divine and Man. Both at once, yet unconfused: Two cooperative wills...to separate them as you are doing is monothelitism, not Christianity!

Now why do you think it was these two He was speaking to?

That's what the Holy Bible says, right?

They did not speak to anyone but Christ.

Who is 100% Man too. Now we are venturing in monophysitism too!

When humans pass on to be with the Lord they are with the Lord. Where else are they?

The Nicene Creed is clear in the belief in the Judgment. Has the Judgment occurred? No one can experience heaven unless they've been given Final Judgment. Therefore, they are not experiencing either heaven or hell.

They are no longer here on earth with us.

They aren't in heaven or hell either.

In scripture we see The Spirit of God. We see the Father and we see Christ. Three persons making up the Godhead. All three being equally God.

Yet you have clearly separated the Hypostic Union of the Messiah by picking apart when Jesus is God and when Jesus is Man. He's both, cooperatively yet unconfused. To suggest, in any way, shape, or form anything else is not acceptable by the Nicene Creed or the Chalcedonian Definition.

 

[Kepha]

Baloney is right. Tee hee.

You sound like a comic book with the Tee hee going on there.

I sure don't need anyone in Heaven to pray for me for I have my Lord intercessing for me and this is the only one that scripture tells us is ever living to do this.

Wrong answer. When we are told to pray for one another we are interceding for one another. And for the last time, we are not saying you NEEEEEED them to pray for you to be saved. What we are saying is it is VERY profitable as Jesus attests to it.

We see no where in scripture that there is anyone else doing this. No where do we see in scripture that saints intercede on our behalf that have passed out of this life to eternity.

It was shown in Revelations. Saying maybe it means something is still saying it's possible that verse meant as it appears to us. It is shown we are all part of the Church. It is shown we are pray for one another. Logical conclusion is Saints can likewise pray for us by God's helping hand to hear our Prayers.

This is assumption at best. These that have passed on are just mortal human beings that could not have changed one spot on a leopards back. The only reason they are with the Lord is because of Gods grace. Nothing they have done could have saved them.

No, it is an assumption to beleive the Bible only contains all one needs without proper teachings first to gain insight to exactly what God wants. It's an assumption that just because it isnt as clear as you want it to be, there is no truth to it.
And it seems you doubt free will since it is an action taken upon oneself to submit to the Graces of God. That is still a work whether you want to doubt it or not.

THey lived by Gods grace just as I do. The only one that can change anything is God for it is written that He can even change the hearts of a king.

He can IF the King wills himself to obey. God can only hold His Holy Hand out. If the King refuses it, the King loses Salvation. And that can easily be taken as arrogance on your part to say you live by God's Graces. It means your leading a Holy Perfect Life. I somehow doubt that.

As far as people gathering down here to pray is because were two or three are gathered in His name there He is in the midst of them. Also Jesus taught us that if two of us agree to touching anything here on earth it shall be done by the Father. Notice that Jesus said here on earth.

It's amazing how you get your theories from. Jesus was talking to Earth people so likewise told them what would happen if 2 or 3 gathered in His name. These verse your using does not in any way deter us from Praying to the Saints with any kind of solid proof whatsoever from that.

 

[Kepha]

I agree with you totally...Iamadopted....I'm an ex Catholic and used to all that stuff with statues and saints....not anymore...Jesus is my only way, and the empty cross represents my risen Lord......

The empty Cross huh? Why even have a cross? Why not just an empty tomb around you neck? Jesus was Resurrected from His Tomb not from the Cross. He DIED on the Cross so without Him on one, just doesn't seem right. I know I always want to be reminded of what He did for us when I gaze upon a Crucifix. When I see the Crucifix, I see His Life, Death, And Resurrection. Jesus came down to Die for us first and formost and it should never be forgotten.

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus the God? Are we unduly separating the Hypostaic Union now?

Jesus is God and Human; Divine and Man. Both at once, yet unconfused: Two cooperative wills...to separate them as you are doing is monothelitism, not Christianity!



That's what the Holy Bible says, right?



Who is 100% Man too. Now we are venturing in monophysitism too!



The Nicene Creed is clear in the belief in the Judgment. Has the Judgment occurred? No one can experience heaven unless they've been given Final Judgment. Therefore, they are not experiencing either heaven or hell.



They aren't in heaven or hell either.



Yet you have clearly separated the Hypostic Union of the Messiah by picking apart when Jesus is God and when Jesus is Man. He's both, cooperatively yet unconfused. To suggest, in any way, shape, or form anything else is not acceptable by the Nicene Creed or the Chalcedonian Definition.

I have said that we have the Godhead. Father Son and Holy Spirit. All three unique persons that make up the Godhead all being in fact God. With humans that have died. Now you say they are not in heaven and they are not in hell and they are not here so where do you say they are? Limbo? You make absolutely no sense. Jesus was God before He became man. Yes Jesus was fully man and fully God. But He was the Son of God praying to the Father God and led by the Spirit of God. This is what scripture shows us.

 

[PaladinValer]

I have said that we have the Godhead. Father Son and Holy Spirit. All three unique persons that make up the Godhead all being in fact God.

Point being? Can you address my post?

With humans that have died. Now you say they are not in heaven and they are not in hell and they are not here so where do you say they are?

What does Scripture say? Where did Jesus say some where? Out from what place did Jonah cry up from?

Limbo?

No such place exists; even the Vatican Catholic Church never officially believed in its existence, only in its possible existence.

You make absolutely no sense.

I make a great deal of sense. If you'd like to learn, all you need to do is ask.

Jesus was God before He became man.

Jesus didn't exist before the Incarnation because Jesus is the Incarnation. There was, in linear time, a time when Jesus was not, yet there has never been a time when the Son was not.

Yes Jesus was fully man and fully God. But He was the Son of God praying to the Father God and led by the Spirit of God. This is what scripture shows us.

Again, you are picking apart the Hypostatic Union. Jesus, just plain Jesus...not just as the Son of God nor just as the Son of Man, but as Jesus; two natures and two wills in cooperative union unmuddled yet distinctm prayed to the Father.

Jesus was like us in all ways except one: He was never in sin. In all other ways, if Jesus can do it, so can we. We cannot save ourselves, for we are in sin. But we most certainly can petition those Saints in the Churches Expecting and Triumphant to pray for us and we can pray for those in the Church Expecting. Jesus did it and we Apostolic Christians celebrate His doing so every August 6th, the date of the Feast of the Transfiguration.

If you don't want others to pray for you and if you don't want to petition others, be they members of the Church Militant, Expecting, or Triumphant, to pray for you, that is your choice. It isn't even a heterodox or heteropraxic choice. I wonder why you would want to be so alone, but that choice is your's. However, to question others' such devout practice is where problems arise, not whether or not you yourself make the choice to do so yourself.

I hope this makes our position more clear.

 

[Iollain]

We also know Jesus isn't upon the cross anymore, yet it still inspires us, even to the point of revelation and sacramentalism.

That has nothing to do with the thread, it is about visiting someone, actually, in the form of a statue, and receiving graces because of it.

 

[IamAdopted]

Point being? Can you address my post?



What does Scripture say? Where did Jesus say some where? Out from what place did Jonah cry up from?



No such place exists; even the Vatican Catholic Church never officially believed in its existence, only in its possible existence.



I make a great deal of sense. If you'd like to learn, all you need to do is ask.



Jesus didn't exist before the Incarnation because Jesus is the Incarnation. There was, in linear time, a time when Jesus was not, yet there has never been a time when the Son was not.



Again, you are picking apart the Hypostatic Union. Jesus, just plain Jesus...not just as the Son of God nor just as the Son of Man, but as Jesus; two natures and two wills in cooperative union unmuddled yet distinctm prayed to the Father.

Jesus was like us in all ways except one: He was never in sin. In all other ways, if Jesus can do it, so can we. We cannot save ourselves, for we are in sin. But we most certainly can petition those Saints in the Churches Expecting and Triumphant to pray for us and we can pray for those in the Church Expecting. Jesus did it and we Apostolic Christians celebrate His doing so every August 6th, the date of the Feast of the Transfiguration.

If you don't want others to pray for you and if you don't want to petition others, be they members of the Church Militant, Expecting, or Triumphant, to pray for you, that is your choice. It isn't even a heterodox or heteropraxic choice. I wonder why you would want to be so alone, but that choice is your's. However, to question others' such devout practice is where problems arise, not whether or not you yourself make the choice to do so yourself.

I hope this makes our position more clear.

There is on more thing that you forgot. He is God and no one could take His life from Him. He layed it down. And He did not petition the saints. Jesus allowed these disciples to see His Glory.

 

[IamAdopted]

Point being? Can you address my post?



What does Scripture say? Where did Jesus say some where? Out from what place did Jonah cry up from?



No such place exists; even the Vatican Catholic Church never officially believed in its existence, only in its possible existence.



I make a great deal of sense. If you'd like to learn, all you need to do is ask.



Jesus didn't exist before the Incarnation because Jesus is the Incarnation. There was, in linear time, a time when Jesus was not, yet there has never been a time when the Son was not.



Again, you are picking apart the Hypostatic Union. Jesus, just plain Jesus...not just as the Son of God nor just as the Son of Man, but as Jesus; two natures and two wills in cooperative union unmuddled yet distinctm prayed to the Father.

Jesus was like us in all ways except one: He was never in sin. In all other ways, if Jesus can do it, so can we. We cannot save ourselves, for we are in sin. But we most certainly can petition those Saints in the Churches Expecting and Triumphant to pray for us and we can pray for those in the Church Expecting. Jesus did it and we Apostolic Christians celebrate His doing so every August 6th, the date of the Feast of the Transfiguration.

If you don't want others to pray for you and if you don't want to petition others, be they members of the Church Militant, Expecting, or Triumphant, to pray for you, that is your choice. It isn't even a heterodox or heteropraxic choice. I wonder why you would want to be so alone, but that choice is your's. However, to question others' such devout practice is where problems arise, not whether or not you yourself make the choice to do so yourself.

I hope this makes our position more clear.

There is no abrahams bosom any more for Jesus went and set them free and they walked among the living and were seen. Paul speaks of being absent from the body. For our bodies are just our tents. When we are absent from the body we are clothed with our heavenly home not made of mans hands.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Co 5:3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
2Co 5:5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
2Co 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--
2Co 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Jesus didn't exist before the Incarnation because Jesus is the Incarnation. There was, in linear time, a time when Jesus was not, yet there has never been a time when the Son was not.

You are mistaken for all things were created through Jesus. We also see that when the Isrealites were drinking from the rock they were drinking from Christ.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Joh 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Scripture never tells us that Jesus had two natures For in Him was all truth. For He was before He came to earth. You err not knowing scripture. Jesus was fully God that took on flesh.

 

[Kepha]

That has nothing to do with the thread, it is about visiting someone, actually, in the form of a statue, and receiving graces because of it.

I was making a post to a so called ex Catholic who seemed to go out of their way to bring up an empty Cross. I had to say something. That stuff irks me.

 

[lionroar0]

Scripture never tells us that Jesus had two natures For in Him was all truth. For He was before He came to earth. You err not knowing scripture. Jesus was fully God that took on flesh.

This is not a christian belive. This is monophysitism.

Peace

 

[IamAdopted]

This is not a christian belive. This is monophysitism.

Peace

Depends on who you call Christian. We still cannot go to a graven image and receive anything that is of God. For God is Living and active in the life of His Children.

 

[PaladinValer]

There is no abrahams bosom any more for Jesus went and set them free and they walked among the living and were seen.

It was emptied upon Jesus' Resurrection: true! But what about hades, which is the other portion of sheol were those reckoned to be unrighteous dwelt and where Jesus also went to witness of Himself? Where they emptied?

And what of those who die now? No Final Judgment has happened, so they cannot possibly experience heaven or hell yet. The only logical solution found in both Scripture and Tradition is that they receive particular judgment and resides in sheol. Thus, paradise (Abraham's Bosom) is being repopulated and hades, which has never yet been emptied, is still filling up.

Paul speaks of being absent from the body. For our bodies are just our tents. When we are absent from the body we are clothed with our heavenly home not made of mans hands.

Abraham's Bosom is in the Presence of Christ, just not the complete Presence. It is a foretaste of heaven.

You are mistaken for all things were created through Jesus.

And where have I denied that?

We also see that when the Isrealites were drinking from the rock they were drinking from Christ.

Point being?

Scripture never tells us that Jesus had two natures For in Him was all truth.

The Nicene Creed does and it is clarified by the Chalcedonian Definition. If you deny Christ's Hypostatic Nature, that's a big problem.

For He was before He came to earth. You err not knowing scripture.

I've read the complete Canon twice through, so you'd be falsely judging me there!

Jesus was fully God that took on flesh.

And that has elements of monophysitism and monothelitism in it.

 

[Debi1967]

They are dead to me. For they no longer live here on earth to where we can speak and talk. There is only one God and it is not the saints nor Mary for they were mere Human beings being led by the Spirit and power of God. Therefore I do not need to speak to them for anything. I have my Father who is creator of all Heaven and all earth and His grace is sufficient for me.

The Lord Himself Died for three days was He then dead to you?????
This is what made His sacrifice so great is the fact that He was dead for three days.......

He then gave us all HOPE because he rose! He gave us Hope that if we followed Him that we too would be able attain Heaven.

Christ Himself said this....

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Mat 22:33 And the multitudes hearing it were in admiration at his doctrine.

 

[IamAdopted]

The Lord Himself Died for three days was He then dead to you?????
This is what made His sacrifice so great is the fact that He was dead for three days.......

He then gave us all HOPE because he rose! He gave us Hope that if we followed Him that we too would be able attain Heaven.

Christ Himself said this....

Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married, but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.
Mat 22:31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken by God, saying to you:
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Mat 22:33 And the multitudes hearing it were in admiration at his doctrine.

Jesus was God. Are you trying to say that the saints are gods also? For Christs flesh died but His Diety never died.

 

[Oblio]

For Christs flesh died but His Diety never died.

So Christ's human nature separated from the Divine at His death ?

 

[Debi1967]

Jesus was God. Are you trying to say that the saints are gods also? For Christs flesh died but His Diety never died.

Jesus ascended into Hell for three days therefore splitting himself from the Father and His sight. As we know those that are in Hell are totally severed from God. So if Jesus ascended there then He severed himself from His Father..... Also your theory would also make his sacrifice for us really null and void if there was nothing to really lose to begin with. Is the concept that both God and Man or the GodMan of Christ was so separated from his Father hard to understand?

And that did not totally address my post because I have just offered proof that God is the God of the Living not the Dead.... how do we become the living, by accepting Christ..... So you are saying in your prior posts that those that have died in the Lord are abandoned by the Lord when Christ Himself is saying that God does not abandon those that believe in Him.