Visiting a statue is visiting?

[Oblio]

Specifically you cannot say because Jesus is here through the Holy Spirit, therefore people can do the same thing.

But that is NOT what I am saying.

I am saying that being absent in the flesh, does not imply that one is dead.

You cannot separate Christ the man, from Christ the God.

 

[Oblio]

Recall that we are to become partakers of the Divine nature

 

[Iollain]

Never mind, as usual you are beating around the bush and ignoring what i'm saying. If you go back to page 5, you'll see what we are supposed to be talking about. Jesus said He would be with us through the Holy Spirit, that does not mean that anyone else is. This is what Iamadopted was trying to say, and you go off in left field with questions that have nothing to do with the subject.

 

[Iollain]

And we are partakers of the Diving nature, we have the Holy Spirit living in us, and the power of God to overcome this world. Not the power to come and hang out on earth after we pass on and have some sort of similarity of the Holy Spirit to be with believers on earth. Especially not to indwell as the RCC Mary can.

 

[Oblio]

Lotta straw there

 

[Oblio]

This is what Iamadopted was trying to say, and you go off in left field with questions that have nothing to do with the subject.

Guarding against the heresies of gnosticism, arianism, nestorianism et. al have everything to do with the subject.

 

[Debi1967]

I never once said that He was not the God of the living. For this He is indeed. But the saints are dead to us. They no longer walk the earth. You say that when Jesus went and took the keys of death and hades that Gods Spirit was not with Him?

Psa 139:2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar.
Psa 139:3 You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.
Psa 139:5 You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is too high, I cannot attain to it.
Psa 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
Psa 139:10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"
Psa 139:12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.

Again you avoid the question asked of you.....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own: and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.
Joh 1:13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John beareth witness of him and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me is preferred before me: because he was before me.
And the Word who is Christ was made Flesh .......................

There is your Manhood for you. In one chapter of the Bible it describes fully this aspect.

Joh 1:51 And he saith to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

He is called the Son of Man for a reason in the Bible.

Now onto the Keys of Death and Hades .....
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

That is because His Church has the Keys to Heaven and therefore was promised that Hell would not prevail against them.

As to your quote from Psalms

Psa 91:9 Because thou, O Lord, art my hope: thou hast made the most High thy refuge.
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil come to thee: nor shall the scourge come near thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he hath given his angels charge over thee; to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 In their hands they shall bear thee up: lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
Mat 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.



God gave the Angels and others ability to do things in his stead all throughout scripture.... In the last passage Jesus is appearing to them as God and has with Him Moses and Elijah ...... Giving incredible credence to the fact that they are in fact alive in Heaven. And that when called upon can be helpful to us.

2Ch 32:33 And Ezechias slept with his fathers, and they buried him above the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Juda, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem celebrated his funeral: and Manasses his son reigned in his stead.

Why do we celebrate someone's death anyway if they are already dead and therefore have no more significance to us? If they are truly dead to us then why do we do this for them after they have departed and not before they have departed? It is as you can see something that is traditionally scriptural to do and why do you think that is?

 

[lionroar0]

Monophysitism.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2657021-wiki-monophysitism.html

Peace

 

[Debi1967]

Monophysitism.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2657021-wiki-monophysitism.html

Peace

Thank you lionroar for using the CF wiki

RR
Wiki Editrix

 

[PaladinValer]

I never once said that He was not the God of the living. For this He is indeed. But the saints are dead to us.

Speak for yourself, not for others and especially not for the 1st century Christians who taught and believed otherwise, like the Apostles.

They no longer walk the earth.

That doesn't mean they are dead.

You say that when Jesus went and took the keys of death and hades that Gods Spirit was not with Him?

No, but that is what you are implying.

Awe but He lives in Us through the Holy Spirit.

Umm...

We can't say this of the saints.

So you deny the Holy Spirit?

For they are not Christ but created human beings that were saved by Gods grace.

Are you God? Do you know their fate? Have you seen the Last Judgment already?

That is why we have Gods written word and His spirit for they testify of each other.

For now.

He is resurrected and bodily in Heaven, and here through the Holy Spirit, as you know and i know, now what does that have to do with it saints?

The Saints are still in the Church because God never abandoned them. You believe otherwise, which is why you are incorrect.

You have alot to say to us but nothing to put into the debate. Where is your evidence of heresy that you accuse of?

Please read the Chalcedonian Definition.

Are you saying that Jesus was just man?

He was not.

Somebody else pointed it out: monophysitism and monothelitism.

That was me

And I don't know if there's a term for it, but saying that Christ's humanity died but not His deity, thereby, resulting in a worthless sacrifice. Perhaps nestorianism?

Nestorianism is the belief that Jesus was not always both God and Human. It is the reason why those who reject St. Mary the Theotokos as the Mother of God (ie: they think that she is His "earthly" mother) are Nestorians, for their minds and logic do not defend and support their idea that Jesus is both.

Oh, and good point about CARM. They have their own heresies they follow too

Wait a minute, are you suggesting that Jesus did not preach in hell ?

He never went to hell, but He did go to sheol.

No, they do not come here as ghosts, no one believes this.

Holy Ghost is a English mistranslation (or it is now, I don't recall what Ghost meant in EM English )

I gotta quote you, Oblio, because this is definitely a big problem: semantics. Relying on older translations, like the KJV, bring around several issues of eptymology that KJV-Readers and similar have gross problems with.

Back in those days, "ghost" did not mean what it means today. It does not mean a disembodied spirit of the dead, but it meant "soul" or "spirit." When the KJV talks about ghosts (or when the 1662 BCP does), it means soul/spirit, not undead being. The fact that the Great Doxology goes "Praise God from Whom all things flow...Praise Him, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is clear proof." Is the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) a disembodied spirit of a person? God forbid!

Moral of the lesson: throw away your KJVs.

Sure they could come here as a ghost, but only the Holy Ghost is everywhere and knows everything, you cannot compare God to humans.

Sorry, but you are not translating the KJV correctly. As a member of the Church under whose auspecies the KJV was translated, I ask you to either read our Bible translation right or not use it. Same goes with all others who use the KJV.

And yes, the KJV is still under copywright.

Moses and Elijah weren't "ghosts" under the modern sense, they were ghosts under the earth 17th century ce Anglican sense: living souls/spirits. Oblio is correct in his assumption that you have mistranslated the KJV rendition of ghost as an undead thing.

 

[IamAdopted]

Again you avoid the question asked of you.....

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own: and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.
Joh 1:13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John beareth witness of him and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me is preferred before me: because he was before me.
And the Word who is Christ was made Flesh .......................

There is your Manhood for you. In one chapter of the Bible it describes fully this aspect.

Joh 1:51 And he saith to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

He is called the Son of Man for a reason in the Bible.

Now onto the Keys of Death and Hades .....
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

That is because His Church has the Keys to Heaven and therefore was promised that Hell would not prevail against them.

As to your quote from Psalms

Psa 91:9 Because thou, O Lord, art my hope: thou hast made the most High thy refuge.
Psa 91:10 There shall no evil come to thee: nor shall the scourge come near thy dwelling.
Psa 91:11 For he hath given his angels charge over thee; to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psa 91:12 In their hands they shall bear thee up: lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart:
Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.
Mat 17:3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.



God gave the Angels and others ability to do things in his stead all throughout scripture.... In the last passage Jesus is appearing to them as God and has with Him Moses and Elijah ...... Giving incredible credence to the fact that they are in fact alive in Heaven. And that when called upon can be helpful to us.

2Ch 32:33 And Ezechias slept with his fathers, and they buried him above the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Juda, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem celebrated his funeral: and Manasses his son reigned in his stead.

Why do we celebrate someone's death anyway if they are already dead and therefore have no more significance to us? If they are truly dead to us then why do we do this for them after they have departed and not before they have departed? It is as you can see something that is traditionally scriptural to do and why do you think that is?

Yes and we also see that We no longer know Christ according to the flesh
2Co 5:13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

No one can get away from Gods Spirit wherever they God for He is onmnipresent. When Jesus went and took the Keys of hades and death God was with Him then also. Jesus was the word of God before He became man. He has always been with the Father and now He is back with the Father sitting on His right hand side. We know longer know Christ according to the flesh. Now when Christ was on the earth was the Father on earth? This is a question I have for you? Where was the Father When Christ was on the earth? By Who Spirit Did Christ do all these miracles from? Who is Christ to you? Is He just a man? You have so much to say about heresey. What is it that you believe about the trinity? Father Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[IamAdopted]

Jesus ascended into Hell for three days therefore splitting himself from the Father and His sight. As we know those that are in Hell are totally severed from God. So if Jesus ascended there then He severed himself from His Father..... Also your theory would also make his sacrifice for us really null and void if there was nothing to really lose to begin with. Is the concept that both God and Man or the GodMan of Christ was so separated from his Father hard to understand?

This is what you wrote. Now show me in scripture where Jesus was seperated from His Fathers sight? This is mere assumption on your part. You show me how you can seperate Christ from God? Mere speculation of mans teaching. Now you try to tell us that people that have passed from this life to the next are where? And that they have this power on high to hear us to see us and to visit us? Another mere speculation of mans thoughts. NOt to be found in scripture. Mary is Gone from Here. Jesus did not recoginze Mary according to the flesh when He stated this.
Mat 12:47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Mat 12:48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
Mat 12:49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Now how hard is it for you to see that Mary was Jesus mother according to the Flesh?

 

[IamAdopted]

Thank you lionroar for using the CF wiki

RR
Wiki Editrix

Show me in scripture where Jesus was of two natures. We see that He was God in the flesh. How can Jesus take on Human nature which is born in sin? Please show me this. Why do you think that Jesus was born of Gods seed and not mans seed? How could Jesus walk the earth as God and still have the human fallen nature?

 

[PaladinValer]

If you don't believe Christ has two natures, you are in violation of the Nicene Creed.

 

[simonthezealot]

Show me in scripture where Jesus was of two natures. We see that He was God in the flesh. How can Jesus take on Human nature which is born in sin? Please show me this. Why do you think that Jesus was born of Gods seed and not mans seed? How could Jesus walk the earth as God and still have the human fallen nature?

Its a confusing but accurate theology called hypostatic union.

 

[IamAdopted]

Its a confusing but accurate theology called hypostatic union.

By two natures what are they saying? Being human and being God? Is this what they are trying to say? For this is truth. He was Human and He was God. It is the nature thing I am confused about.

 

[PaladinValer]

IamAdopted, I'll say it again:

Read the Chalcedonian Definition.

 

[IamAdopted]

I believe that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh. I also believe that He was before He came to earth to take on humanity. I believe He died and rose from the dead on the third day being seen by many. I believe He ascended to the right hand side of the Father. I believe that He ever lives and is right now interceding for His People that are here on earth.

 

[lionroar0]

Jesus can't be human 100% with out a human nature.

A person can't be human with out a human nature.

This includes Jesus.

How are you defining human nature?


Peace

 

[PaladinValer]

"God in the flesh" in what sense?

He is God Incarnate, which is what the Creed says, which means something more than just "God in the flesh."