Virgin Birth

[Lotar]

He was created before the Fall, at which point, he had the sin nature, which was then passed on to all his progeny. Christ's humanness is progeny of Adam, isn't it? So he had to have the sin nature.

Such was the reason for the virgin birth, or actually the immaculate conseption.

God gave Mary His grace, so that she was sinless, and conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was born without the sinful nature.

The virgin birth was more than just to show where he came from, remember that He was accused of being born of fornication. So it wasn't exactly undeniable proof.

 

[ZiSunka]

But if Adam didn't have a "sin nature" as you call it, why did he sin?

No one is forced to sin, he chose to sin, like we do. The sin nature means that we have the ability and the inclination to sin. Adam had freewill, which he chose to use to disobey God. We have freewill which we use to disobey God. Adam didn't have an ability to know right from wrong until he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. That act gave him the knowledge of morality, right and wrong, good and bad. That knowledge made him responsible for the things he chose to do wrong.

We know that Christ had the ability to sin, because why would satan bother tempting Him to sin, if He was incapable of sinning? The question really is, did He have the inclination to sin? Was He really tempted to carry out sin, but somehow always resisted the urge? I think so.

I might be wrong, but it seems logical that for Christ to be fully human, it means that He had the same struggles we do, even the struggle not to sin.

 

[ZiSunka]

Such was the reason for the virgin birth, or actually the immaculate conseption.

God gave Mary His grace, so that she was sinless, and conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was born without the sinful nature.

The virgin birth was more than just to show where he came from, remember that He was accused of being born of fornication. So it wasn't exactly undeniable proof.

It wasn't given to make us believe he was born of a virgin, it was given to us so that he didn't have a human father. It had to be a virgin conception and birth, otherwise, he would have been just another human with a human father, born of sexual reproduction and not of God.

Show me in the Bible where it says Mary was sinless.

The immaculate conception is a term used to refer to Mary's conception, not Christ's. It is the opinion that she was born without sin nature and never in her whole life committed a single sin.

 

[Lotar]

No one is forced to sin, he chose to sin, like we do. The sin nature means that we have the ability and the inclination to sin. Adam had freewill, which he chose to use to disobey God. We have freewill which we use to disobey God. Adam didn't have an ability to know right from wrong until he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. That act gave him the knowledge of morality, right and wrong, good and bad. That knowledge made him responsible for the things he chose to do wrong.

We know that Christ had the ability to sin, because why would satan bother tempting Him to sin, if He was incapable of sinning? The question really is, did He have the inclination to sin? Was He really tempted to carry out sin, but somehow always resisted the urge? I think so.

I might be wrong, but it seems logical that for Christ to be fully human, it means that He had the same struggles we do, even the struggle not to sin.

Adam did not have a sinful nature until after the fall, yet he was tempted and failed. A sinful nature means that it is our nature to sin, that we will sin. It is impossible for us, without the grace of God, to not sin. Christ had to be born without this nature. He had free-will, so He obviously could have chose to sin and was tempted, but He did not.

 

[Lotar]

It wasn't given to make us believe he was born of a virgin, it was given to us so that he didn't have a human father. It had to be a virgin conception and birth, otherwise, he would have been just another human with a human father, born of sexual reproduction and not of God.

Show me in the Bible where it says Mary was sinless.

The immaculate conception is a term used to refer to Mary's conception, not Christ's. It is the opinion that she was born without sin nature and never in her whole life committed a single sin.

No, immaculate conception is used for both by Catholics, and only for Jesus by Protestants.

Mary was not sinless, I never said that she was. If she was, she would still be alive today.

 

[Oblio]

It is impossible for us, without the grace of God, to not sin. Christ had to be born without this nature.

The difference is that Christ is God while at the same time being man. I do not see why Christ had to be born without this nature in order to live a sinless life.

 

[ZiSunka]

Adam did not have a sinful nature until after the fall, yet he was tempted and failed. A sinful nature means that it is our nature to sin, that we will sin. It is impossible for us, without the grace of God, to not sin. Christ had to be born without this nature. He had free-will, so He obviously could have chose to sin and was tempted, but He did not.

We're back to using two different terms. I'm talking about sin nature, and you are talking about sinful nature. I'm talking about an ability and an inclination to sin, and you are talking about a complusion to sin.

 

[Benedicta00]

No, immaculate conception is used for both by Catholics, and only for Jesus by Protestants.

Mary was not sinless, I never said that she was. If she was, she would still be alive today.

Lotar,

Mary is still alive today, in heaven with Christ... her son.

 

[Oblio]

Mary was not sinless, I never said that she was. If she was, she would still be alive today.

Living a sinless life does not free one from earthly corruption and physical death. She was still born into a world corrupted by sin, and being human, she was subject to the consequence of sin entering the world.

 

[ZiSunka]

The difference is that Christ is God while at the same time being man. I do not see why Christ had to be born without this nature in order to live a sinless life.

Neither do I. But I think part of the problem is that you and I think that sin nature is an inclination to sin and Lotar thinks it is a compulsion to sin.

Lotar thinks that sin nature means we HAVE to sin and are helpless to resist sin. We think that sin nature means that we have the impulse to sin, but the ability to resist.

 

[Lotar]

Lotar,

Mary is still alive today, in heaven with Christ... her son.

She died, went to heaven, and has a place no higher than any other believer.

 

[ZiSunka]

Living a sinless life does not free one from earthly corruption and physical death. She was still born into a world corrupted by sin, and being human, she was subject to the consequence of sin entering the world.

The catholics here at CF have informed me that they do believe that she lived a sinless life and because of this, she was taken up into heaven in her earthly body, ala Elijah and Enoch. They belive that sinlessness exempted Mary from death.

 

[ZiSunka]

She died, went to heaven, and has a place no higher than any other believer.

I think she is a bleoved person in heaven, greatly honored for her willingness and ability to bear Christ, but that she is no more divine than any other believer.

 

[Benedicta00]

Lamb,

Believe it or not I get what you are saying and I think you are using a lack of a better word.

I think you are trying to refer to the human nature when you say sin nature. Yes, Christ was born with a human nature that was prone to temptations but because he was God, he did not fall into temptation but his nature was not fallen, like ours is. He was not depraved and corrupted by a “sin” nature the way we are.

I guess the best description would be he was born with a human nature that was passed on from Adam but not a fallen one, his inherited the human nature in it’s original justice.

 

[Benedicta00]

I think she is a bleoved person in heaven, greatly honored for her willingness and ability to bear Christ, but that she is no more divine than any other believer.

No one thinks she is divine.

 

[Oblio]

edited out, forgot what forum I was in

 

[ZiSunka]

Lamb,

Believe it or not I get what you are saying and I think you are using a lack of a better word.

I think you are trying to refer to the human nature when you say sin nature. Yes, Christ was born with a human nature that was prone to temptations but because he was God, he did not fall into temptation but his nature was not fallen, like ours is. He was not depraved and corrupted by a “sin” nature the way we are.

I guess the best description would be he was born with a human nature that was passed on from Adam but not a fallen one, his inherited the human nature in it’s original justice.

I'm willing to go along with that. Christ did not have a fallen nature, but he had the inclination and ability to sin just like we do.

When do we get our fallen nature? At birth, or when we sin for the first time?

 

[ZiSunka]

No one thinks she is divine.

Did I say anyone did?

 

[Lotar]

I think she is a bleoved person in heaven, greatly honored for her willingness and ability to bear Christ, but that she is no more divine than any other believer.

Well, I guess that you still have a little Catholic left in you

 

[Oblio]

I think she is a bleoved person in heaven, greatly honored for her willingness and ability to bear Christ,

Well, I guess that you still have a little Catholic left in you

Protestants don't believe this ?