Virgin Birth

[Peter]

What do you mean when you say that Jesus' was a virgin birth? To help me understand your view please include your definition of the following:birth, virgin.

 

[Lotar]

What do you mean when you say that Jesus' was a virgin birth? To help me understand your view please include your definition of the following:birth, virgin.

Mary was a virgin and she gave birth to Christ.

Virgin
a person who has not had sexual intercourse

Birth
the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent b : the act or process of bringing forth young from the womb

 

[Drotar]

I'll take Lotar's definitions.

You know, we ought to team up, lol .

Well, Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost, as the Scriptures tell us, and not born naturally of Mary and Joseph.

The reason why is because it is beleived that if He had been born naturally, of two parents, He would have been born with original sin. He therefore would not have been able to atone for our sins. Since He was born of the Holy Spirit, He was sinless.

This is why He was born of the seed of a woman (Gen. 3:15). It is believed that original sin is passed on through the male. I personally don't think so. Possible though.

If each soul were individually created by God, that would render a belief for pre-existence (not supported in Scripture) and nullify original sin (LARGELY supported in Scripture). The soul is created at the point that the sperm meets the egg. The soul passes down the qualities of the male and female. In the situation with Christ, He was not born of her egg. He was born without ever having accepted her spiritual qualities, or probably not physical either. It was a miracle of birth in which Mary merely bore Him, but technically never conceived Him because she never got pregnant with Him. He was placed there- it's not like the LDS belief. For this reason, there was never the passing on of spiritual flaws, but the receiving of physical nourishment. What I believe.

Now, this gets into a whole debate about the hypostatic union, kenosis, Apollinarianism, etc. Actually, I'd be interested in getting into that. I have zero experience discussing it.

 

[Drotar]

I meant to close that with "TTYL Jesus loves you!" :o

 

[Peter]

Interesting. I happen to have a friend who has never been near a man, therefore never has had sex, and she bore a child for an infertile couple. According to your definition, she never had sex and she gave birth, hers was a virgin birth.

So, is it sex that creates the sin nature, or just the sperm?

 

[Drotar]

Yes. That, if it happened, would be by definition a virgin birth.

However, the physical impossibility of that is questionable. Nothing against your friend.

Not sex, not sperm. When you pass down your traits, you pass down who you are.

 

[Peter]

Invitro fertilization is a reality of our times. Virgins (by your definition)can become pregnant without sex and they can then give birth.

Even though I would like to know what gene is the sin gene and secondly why women can't pass it on, only the men, I digress.

Are you aware that the definition of a virgin you give is a rather new one? Up to a generation ago the definition of a virgin, among females, was anyone who's hyman (sp) was intact. This was the definition of virgin among the apostles and the church fathers.

The question was posted to see if we were talking about the same thing when we (Protestants and Orthodox) talk about the virgin birth. It is clear we are not. Yours is the classic Roman Catholic view.

Well, thanks for your time.

Peace.

Peter

 

[SoldierofChrist]

Peter, the virgin birth simply means that Mary, without having intercourse or some modern-day injection of sperm into her, she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

If the Orthodox church says that it was anything but the Holy Spirit, I would say they are in error. However, I don't think that's what you are saying. That's what the Scriptures teach. That Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit alone.

 

[nyj]

Invitro fertilization is a reality of our times. Virgins (by your definition)can become pregnant without sex and they can then give birth.

...

Up to a generation ago the definition of a virgin, among females, was anyone who's hyman (sp) was intact. This was the definition of virgin among the apostles and the church fathers.

In vitro fertilization for a virgin woman (using your definition) would also keep her hyman intact. So I don't know what you're trying to get at here.

Also, is an intact hyman the only definition of virginity? Men don't have hymans, or does virginity only matter for women?

 

[Drotar]

Good point nyj.

Well, I'm not Roman Catholic.

I guess you could say then that hers is technically a virgin birth.

But be very careful to specify what you mean. You're not going to get smiles and nods if you say something life that out in the real world.

You can say hers is a virgin birth, but you cannot say it was an Immaculate Conception. There's a difference.

 

[ZiSunka]

Virgin birth means that she had never had intercourse with any man, nor did she conceive through sexual means. The conception of Christ was not a normal conception, but supernatural and frankly, a mysterious thing. I don't know exactly the mechanism of how Jesus came to be conceived, but was not by natural means.

 

[Spaarks]

If it says that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary then that's all we need to know. There's really no point in trying to debate it. I accept it as fact and will never question its validity. We aren't supposed to. Peace of mind to you all.

 

[Photini]

Virgin birth means that she had never had intercourse with any man, nor did she conceive through sexual means. The conception of Christ was not a normal conception, but supernatural and frankly, a mysterious thing. I don't know exactly the mechanism of how Jesus came to be conceived, but was not by natural means.

The OP is not in reference to the virginal conception, but the virginal birth. Does anyone know of any teaching regarding the virginal BIRTH of Christ in the Protestant denoms? An event seperate from the conception....just as my conception and birth were two seperate events, so was that of Christ, yes?

 

[ZiSunka]

The OP is not in reference to the virginal conception, but the virginal birth. Does anyone know of any teaching regarding the virginal BIRTH of Christ in the Protestant denoms? An event seperate from the conception....just as my conception and birth were two seperate events, so was that of Christ, yes?

That IS what is meant by virgin birth in non-catholicism, if there is such a word. She conceived without sex, and had no sexual relations until her child was born, Jesus. It might not be the answer you were looking for, but that is still the answer.

 

[ZiSunka]

Interesting. I happen to have a friend who has never been near a man, therefore never has had sex, and she bore a child for an infertile couple. According to your definition, she never had sex and she gave birth, hers was a virgin birth.

So, is it sex that creates the sin nature, or just the sperm?

Whoa! That's outta left field. Jesus was born fully human and had a sin nature just like the rest of us. It's neither sex nor sperm that creates the sin nature, it is human nature that we inherited from Adam. The propensity to sin is common to every human being.

 

[Photini]

Okay. Thanks. I think though, that Catholicism may actually be closer to the Protestant understanding on this one though.
In our church, we celebrate the conception (called the Annunciation) on a different day than the Nativity.

 

[TrueFaith]

Whoa! That's outta left field. Jesus was born fully human and had a sin nature just like the rest of us. It's neither sex nor sperm that creates the sin nature, it is human nature that we inherited from Adam. The propensity to sin is common to every human being.

Jesus had a "sin nature just like the rest of us." ??? Oh this is news then to me. Where is that in the Bible? Jesus is without sin.

 

[ZiSunka]

Jesus had a "sin nature just like the rest of us." ??? Oh this is news then to me. Where is that in the Bible? Jesus is without sin.

He had a sin nature, the propensity to sin, and was tempted in every way we are tempted, He just resisted and didn't sin.

Pretty impressive, huh? What good would be a savior who didn't ever feel the temptation to sin? He wouldn't know what it's really like to be human, to want to do bad but resist.

When he went to the cross, He knew exactly what it is like to be one of us, because in everyway, he was one of us.

 

[Angelus00]

Okay. Thanks. I think though, that Catholicism may actually be closer to the Protestant understanding on this one though.
In our church, we celebrate the conception (called the Annunciation) on a different day than the Nativity.

Actually, Photini, so do we.

 

[TrueFaith]

He had a sin nature, the propensity to sin, and was tempted in every way we are tempted, He just resisted and didn't sin.

Pretty impressive, huh? What good would be a savior who didn't ever feel the temptation to sin? He wouldn't know what it's really like to be human, to want to do bad but resist.

When he went to the cross, He knew exactly what it is like to be one of us, because in everyway, he was one of us.

No. He was tempted but was not born with original sin. In this way He was like Adam. He had always the choice to choose sin (free will) but did not have sin in him. Beware of what you say and how you say it. Of course maybe your church teaches Jesus had sin... or that Jesus is not God.