Violent Protest Outside the EP

[countrymousenc]

Basileus, since there is not one single Roman Catholic on this earth today who was responsible for the 4th Crusade, I think it is really spiteful to dredge up the past. If God does not condemn the children for the sins of the fathers, why should we condemn Catholics today for anything that's been done in the past? It doesn't help anyone at all.

Take a look at Father Thomas Hopko's Church History section at the OCA website. There were Eastern Church clergy who contributed to the schism, also. This is not to say that Orthodoxy hasn't preserved the Pure Faith, but that the Eastern Church is not made up of perfect people.

 

[xenia]

The real enemy of Orthodoxy is Roman Catholicism NOT Islam.

Islam is the enemy of the whole world.

-Xenia

 

[Basileus]

countrymousenc I am talking about a thought process that still exists in the RC mind.

(Besides the fact that Constantinople was so weakened by the attack by a supposed Christian "brother" that had a cross sewn on their shoulders that committed unspeakable atrocities on Holy Orthodox Altars. I know it is purely subjective, but Constantinople may very well have fought off Mehemet II if it wasn't for the Fourth Crusade, and the EP would not be under the Turkish yoke.)

Is it spiteful to mention the Priest abuse scandal that forced young boys to do unspeakable depraved acts with older men that were role models for them? Is that recent enough? Those people are still alive. The RC heirarchy just moved the molesters around to a fresh crop of meat. Let me tell you I work with children and this really gets my Scotch up.

How about in WWII when the Pope knew that Hitler was gassing and shoving Jews into the ovens but did absolutely NOTHING!!! That is wonderful Christian charity for you.

I think we can judge the present in our own century quite well.

Xenia...Islam is not the enemy of the world...Fundementalism is...on both sides. Fundementalist Muslims AND Christians are the true enemies.

 

[xenia]

Well Basileus, I must disagree with you. I know many fundamentalist Christians and they have never even considered taking a school captive or crashing airplanes into skyscrapers.

-Xenia

 

[ufonium2]

Sometime in the next 24 hours we are probably all going to entreat God to "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Just a thought.

 

[Rilian]

The first country to rush aid and medical assistance to Beslan after the tragedy there last week was Italy. That speaks volumes to me, about both the people that instigated this crime and those that came to help heal the wounds.

Several Catholics have come and offered their condolences for the tragic death of Patriach Petros today. All I can say is that when a brother offers you aid, you don't slap him in the face.

I also agree with what xenia said.

 

[countrymousenc]

The RC heirarchy just moved the molesters around to a fresh crop of meat. Let me tell you I work with children and this really gets my Scotch up.

I feel the same way about it that you do. But the RCC is not the only place in which this kind of thing has happened, even recently, and the vast majority of its clergy were not involved. Many of the laity reacted by holding back the money until they were satisfied that their church would own up to it and discipline the perpetrators. The RCC is not just the church of people of the likes of Cardinal Law (who for all we know may have truly repented and been forgiven), it is also the church of many such as Mother Theresa.

 

[Theophorus]

I find this all very troubling. Islam is a threat to the world. Its tactics are secret and dark. It exploits the innocent. It celebrates and embraces death. It murders women and children.

Some may say that this is the work of a minority, and that is true, but they are the sum of Islams beliefs, and its praxis is violence, and the shedding of blood.

Governments have little sway over "grass root" movments on a large scale, or their mores, because their populace become as a cancer, malignant and spreading.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Basileus... Brother, you have a lot of bitterness you need to deal with. I cannot fathom where these words of yours are coming from. I am don't even know what to say except to apologize to our Catholic friends (fellow believers in Christ) who are here visiting and ask for their forgiveness and understanding. God bless all of you and God bless you too, Basileus.

Also, let's not peg Islam as our Enemy. Sure, anything less than the truth is our enemy (and because of this Judaism, buddhism and atheism is our enemy just as much as Islam). In the end, godlessness is the Enemy. 9/11 was an act of godlessness. What happened in Russia was an act of godlessness but there are many Muslims in the world that only wish to serve their Creator and who, without knowing it, are serving the One, True God. When they serve others for love's sake, they have nothing to do with these godless nuts, but they learned from their religion (as truly deficient as it is) to love one another. Where there is true love, God is present also.

So yes, we can say that technically Islam is our enemy just as any other religion that denies Christ as God and Savior is our enemy. Why can't we just admit it? We are our worst enemy. We love to blame everything on the Muslims or the Jews or the atheists or politics or even other Christians like the Catholics and "those darn protestants" (protestantism: a step that was necessary for many of us in our walk towards the Church, let's remember). But it's us! Jesus doesn't hold them responsible for our salvation.. He holds us responsible. We are the one's who decide not to pray, we are the ones who decide not to go to Liturgy, we are the ones who decide not take the Church seriously and neglect our children from the graces of the Church. We have created our own monsters greater than any terrorist attack Al Quaeda could dream up (spiritually speaking). Someone said in TAW once posted that there were like 3 million Orthodox in the US. I found that so hard to believe (since there are not the parishes to support such a claim) until I realized that that probably was statistically true, since most don't even practice. Who's fault is that? I may have missed something, but the last time I checked, the Muslims werent holding us back from going to Church, the Catholics weren't pillaging our Churches... we just decided not to go. And frankly speaking, although this is going on in other countries, we know that God allows us to grow through persecution. Of course this is easy for me to say as I sit here in my comfortable apartment and plan on going to Liturgy tomorrow morning with no problem, but it is true what I'm saying. Persecution has always been seen as a blessing in the Church and it is in persecution that we remember who we are. But laziness and despondency is truly our enemy for there is nothing good that can come of it... nothing.

There is nothing we can do to change Islam or atheism, but there is everything we can do to change ourselves to the Glory of God. Sometimes our biggest stumbling block is ourselves.

James

PS: There was a priest or monk I was listening on tape who said half-jokingly that he sometimes felt sorry for the Devil because we blame everything on him when most of the stuff we do is due to our own selfish decisions. Something to think about as I sit up here late at night on a saturday and risk the chance of sleeping in by accident... again.. my fault. I think Ill go to bed.

 

[xenia]

Hi James,

I appreciate your tenderheartedness and your call for self-examination.

Yet, I still say that Islam is the enemy of the world. Note I did not say that individual Moslems are the enemy, but the religion and philosophy of Islam is antagonistic to peace and security and especially antagonistic to Christianity.

But again James, I do admire your loving gentle spirit.

-Xenia

PS Maybe it would be more accurate for me to say that Islam is one of many enemies of the world.

 

[Reader Nilus]

I think naming anyone or anything as the enemy is to have already lost. We are commanded to love our enemies, so if we name them as enemy we are not doing what we are commanded. Islam is not an enemy, if we define it as such we have already begun to play on their turf. The fact that most people who are Moslems are just like you and I and want to live out their life in peace, just like we do. The greater threat to Christianity is nihilism and the consumer mentality, and not Islam which is a spiritual system. Part of what you are seeing is not a hatred for Christianity, from Islam but a hatred for consumerism and nihilism that western culture has been spreading around the world. Christianity does not have much in common with that at all, yet we confuse the two and think they are attacking Christians. Maybe it is time we take a stand ourselves in regards to our culture.
Jeff the Finn

 

[xenia]

Well Jeff, since I respect your opinion, I will give this issue some more thought.

In Christ Xenia

 

[Theophorus]

I think naming anyone or anything as the enemy is to have already lost. We are commanded to love our enemies, so if we name them as enemy we are not doing what we are commanded. Islam is not an enemy, if we define it as such we have already begun to play on their turf. The fact that most people who are Moslems are just like you and I and want to live out their life in peace, just like we do. The greater threat to Christianity is nihilism and the consumer mentality, and not Islam which is a spiritual system. Part of what you are seeing is not a hatred for Christianity, from Islam but a hatred for consumerism and nihilism that western culture has been spreading around the world. Christianity does not have much in common with that at all, yet we confuse the two and think they are attacking Christians. Maybe it is time we take a stand ourselves in regards to our culture.
Jeff the Finn

I do not believe that most Christians have named them as the enemy. The ideology and many of its adherents have already taken the iniative on that.
Yes it is true that many muslims have a disdain for consumerism and wetern culture in general, as do I, but the problem is not our stances but our response to it. For us, it is weakness, apathy or lack of conviction, but as you stated above,for Isalm it is hatred that is the problem.
The concern I expressed is not the threat to the church, for the church is eternal and assured by the grace of God, and by the stewardship of Christ and the Holy Spirit, but rather my love and sympathy for the victims of hatred, both those who suffer from violence, and those who are swept up into its lies.
Yes all other non Christian religions are in essence, an enemy to the church, but just as the church categorizes sin, some sins being grievious to the point that we are not to pray on a person's behalf, likewise are there not certain heresies that would be worse than others?
Any heresy that advocates the spilling of innocent blood, especially children's, in the name of God is blasphemy of the highest order, for it goes against the very nature of our Lord.
Also, if we can not discern and identifiy the errors and tragedies concerning something of this magnitude, how can we possibly do the same with subtler problems that effect our culture, and impact our lives and that of our neighbors on a daily basis.

Though I do concede that we should get our own houses in order before
we remove the splinter out of our brother's eye, my concern is not the judgement of Islam, for that is Christ's, but rather I grieve for its victims.
Though I am surrounded by immorality, "hate" is the one thing that saddens me the most, for when a person hates, they commit murder in their heart, and for some they carry out their heart's desire.

Vincent

 

[Stone_Lock_Comanche]

Sin is the Enemy of the world, and the devil who sows hate and malice in the hearts of man. Muslims have always been a persecutor of Orthodox, in Egypt, Turkey, Serbia, and Bulgaria. Through their hatred, violence, and murder, many Orthodox have been martyred in the name of our Most Merciful Lord Jesus, the highest honour, and confirmation of faith. Through Tribulations and trials we are purified, and strengthend. Nothing exists or takes place without the will of God, saying that Islam is the enemy of the World is evidence of a distorted worldview. We must pray for our so called Enemies because, through them we are given a chance to truly show our Love for Jesus Christ, and benefit our fellow man who is the image of God, endowed with understanding, conscience, a rational and seeking mind, and a soul and spirit which are created for endless union and praise for God. So do not feel that the man in who these properties of the image of God are defiled, and corrupted by the devil is the Enemy. But the enemy of all mankind since our creation, the Devil. Who through his malice is always seeking to lead us into hell. Lord help us.

 

[prodromos]

How about in WWII when the Pope knew that Hitler was gassing and shoving Jews into the ovens but did absolutely NOTHING!!! That is wonderful Christian charity for you.

This is patently false and has been clearly proven to be so. I would like to apologise to our Catholic brethren for having to put up with such slander being posted in an Orthodox forum.

John.

 

[Basileus]

I sincerely did not mean to attack Roman Catholics in generally. I am truly sorry for any offense taken. I am simply upset with the heirarchy and an historical pattern of behaviour they exhibit.

Prodomos, I would like to see the "patently false proof". I had a couple of accredited history college classes and this was taught and mentioned in lecture and in the text books. The Pope thought that Hitler was going to win and was already negotitiating the Roman Church's postition in a Post WWII Hitler dominated Europe. And as this is an Orthodox Board (and I am a Chrismated Orthodox) they can't be too surprised that everything is not all hugs and kisses over here for them.

Stone, historically Christians have had the freedom to worship as they want in muslim lands. It is only recently with the rise of fundementalists that this has become a problem. The Christians used to pay the taxes because as a muslim one did not pay taxes. As opposed to the West. Look to the Council of Lyons, and Pope Nicholas V, who was more concerned with the use of Unleavened Bread in Constantinople than in stopping Mehmet II.

 

[ufonium2]

Prodomos, I would like to see the "patently false proof". I had a couple of accredited history college classes and this was taught and mentioned in lecture and in the text books.

Having taught at an accredited college, I can assure you that this means nothing. Historical untruths persist for years even after they've been proven false. When something is found to be false, they don't send out a memo to every historian in the world, nor do they recall all the history books. There's a certain musicological myth that I hear probably once a month, perpetuated by well-known textbooks and college professors, that has been known to be false since the 1950s.

 

[katherine2001]

Personally, I agree with Jeff. God may not like the religion of Islam, but He loves the people who are Moslem/Muslim. Also, the Moslems in the Arab nations have some legitimate beefs against the US. You have our fanatical support of anything the Israelis do, and of course, we supply them with the arms they use against the Palestinians, both Christian and Moslem. Have we ever chastised the Israelis for any of their treatment of the Palestinians? Maybe how they chose to handle their beefs isn't the best way, but I do believe that if we are honest, we contributed to their bitterness, anger, and sense of hopelessness that may have led them to try some extraordinary means of getting our attention.

Yes, Islam is wrong, as is Buddhism and any religion other than Christianity. However, is the way to win them to Christ to bomb them and force them to become Christians so that we'll leave them alone? Do we use military might against them or give God the time and peace to win them to Him?

 

[countrymousenc]

There's a certain musicological myth that I hear probably once a month, perpetuated by well-known textbooks and college professors, that has been known to be false since the 1950s.

Which one? (I was a music major, and inquiring minds want to know!)

 

[ufonium2]

Which one? (I was a music major, and inquiring minds want to know!)

The one about Palestrina composing the Pope Marcellus Mass to convince the Pope that liturgical polyphony could work.