Views on Hell and the problem with punishment

[bhsmte]

You are not convinced by that because you didn't study it, Christianity is clearly superior to any other religion. I'm not a fundamentalist, neither an intransigent intolerant, neither a christian supremacist or every other tag you tag believers with, I am speaking the truth.

I was a Christian for 40 years and it was only when I embarked on a thorough study of the NT, by reading the works of many NT scholars and historians, that it allowed me to acquire knowledge I did not possess and caused me to conclude; I could not reconcile the Christian story with reality any longer.

Don't think non believers don't roll over every rock in their efforts to understand. A recent national study concluded; those who have the highest knowledge of religion were; atheists and muslims, with Christians in general, scoring the lowest.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I often wonder, maybe I am wrong and eternal sex may not be that fulfilling. Some hindus say we create our own reality, though intention and desire. At least, for me though, this "vision programme" is sometimes better than focusing on the problems of the news which I can do little about. I'd prefer not to whither and die with weights that are too heavey for me.

Keep a steady craft, and then we can reach the distant shores. Steady heart, steady life...



cf social neuroscience:

Social neuroscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Traditional neuroscience has for many years considered the nervous system as an isolated entity and largely ignored influences of the social environments in which humans and many animal species live. In fact, we now recognize the considerable impact of social structures on the operations of the brain and body. These social factors operate on the individual through a continuous interplay of neural, neuroendocrine, metabolic and immune factors on brain and body, in which the brain is the central regulatory organ and also a malleable target of these factors.[3] "

 

[Colter]

I was a Christian for 40 years and it was only when I embarked on a thorough study of the NT, by reading the works of many NT scholars and historians, that it allowed me to acquire knowledge I did not possess and caused me to conclude; I could not reconcile the Christian story with reality any longer.

Don't think non believers don't roll over every rock in their efforts to understand. A recent national study concluded; those who have the highest knowledge of religion were; atheists and muslims, with Christians in general, scoring the lowest.

Having knowledge about religion or being a member of a religious organization does not mean one is spirit born, it doesn't mean that the individual has turned their life and will over to God with complete abandon.

Some non-believers acquaint themselves with religion motivated by a desire to debunk it.

 

[bhsmte]

Having knowledge about religion or being a member of a religious organization does not mean one is spirit born, it doesn't mean that the individual has turned their life and will over to God with complete abandon.

Some non-believers acquaint themselves with religion motivated by a desire to debunk it.

Knowledge is something I consider a good thing.

If you believe in something, it is healthy to investigate it's historicity and be honest with yourself in regards to the same.

Acquiring new knowledge is also something that can cause one to change their beliefs and I also consider accepting new knowledge (and not simply denying the same because it is uncomfortable) to be a healthy approach. When a faith belief requires a person to deny evidence to hold onto it, that is only going to cause that person internal turmoil, as they get their defense mechanisms revved up to constantly protect the belief, at all costs.

Some can do the above, some can't.

 

[Colter]

Knowledge is something I consider a good thing.

If you believe in something, it is healthy to investigate it's historicity and be honest with yourself in regards to the same.

Acquiring new knowledge is also something that can cause one to change their beliefs and I also consider accepting new knowledge (and not simply denying the same because it is uncomfortable) to be a healthy approach. When a faith belief requires a person to deny evidence to hold onto it, that is only going to cause that person internal turmoil, as they get their defense mechanisms revved up to constantly protect the belief, at all costs.

Some can do the above, some can't.

* Agreed

* I've been saying the highlighted portion for a week now, people who leave faith altogether adopt new beliefs.

* Some people can critique and reform rather than adopt godless ideals.

 

[bhsmte]

* Some people can critique and reform rather than adopt godless ideals.

Sure, the majority of Christians who now agree with the TOE is a good example of them needing to adapt their faith beliefs.

Now, some can't reconcile reality with believing that this God exists, or they acquire new knowledge that leads them to this conclusion. I guess they could pretend they still believe this God exists, but some can't play those mind games with themselves.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You are not convinced by that because you didn't study it, Christianity is clearly superior to any other religion.

I have studied it, and I am not convinced it is superior in the way you claim it is. In any case, that's irrelevant to the question at hand. To repeat, my question was about what your response would be if, in the afterlife, you encountered the God of a different religion.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Having knowledge about religion or being a member of a religious organization does not mean one is spirit born, it doesn't mean that the individual has turned their life and will over to God with complete abandon.

No True Scotsman would say something like this.

 

[Colter]

No True Scotsman would say something like this.

:o

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I often wonder, maybe I am wrong and eternal sex may not be that fulfilling.

Let me tell you this. I've had sex before... not fireworks and sparkles... it was fun

I wouldn't even devote a day to sex... Not much more than maybe a few hours at best... but an eternity though? I have Anthropophobia and like to play Mincecraft a lot.

So for me, personally, not ideal.

 

[Wryetui]

Study is very important to know your faith once you have it, but if you don't have that faith it will not do much. Since when faith is acquired through study? Since when God's grace isn't necessary? From a theological perspective, as long as it's based only on reason, the climb of the human mind on the mountain of knowledge will never reach it's top. St. Gregory Palamas makes an impactant statement: "Not the one who studied much will become closer to God, but that who cleansed himself through virtue from vices and sin and stuck with God through pure heart and prayer" and "Speculative knowledge, reached by phylosophy, it's not the knowledge of God at all, because it produces in us pride and it blocks us from seeing the reality, our reality and God's reality. Those who clean themselves have a sight of God which is very close of the true sight of God, this sight is a certainty of God's presence".

Do the Bible say "Blessed be those with a pure heart, because they will see God"?

 

[quatona]

Many atheists and agnostics see a problem with the issue of Hell and punishment, a lot of people think God punishes them for not believing sending them to Hell.

Actually, as an atheist, I don´t believe that a god exists, to begin with.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

Study is very important to know your faith once you have it, but if you don't have that faith it will not do much.

Something about this statement seems very dishonest. Studying is the act of acquiring knowledge and analysis and also a bit of memorization. It's an act of absorbing. So why would this study be less effective if I have no faith? I would learn the same things right?

Since when faith is acquired through study?

you asked

Since when God's grace isn't necessary?

When I'm using the restroom?

From a theological perspective,

A perspective that has no bearing on reality at large

as long as it's based only on reason, the climb of the human mind on the mountain of knowledge will never reach it's top.

You're saying we should abandon reason and our minds will ascend further past a certain threshold rather than descend. Sounds more backward than homeopathy.

St. Gregory Palamas makes an impactant statement: "Not the one who studied much will become closer to God, but that who cleansed himself through virtue from vices and sin and stuck with God through pure heart and prayer"

Probably because anyone who takes a deep analysis of this will sense some things don't add up.

"Speculative knowledge, reached by phylosophy, it's not the knowledge of God at all, because it produces in us pride and it blocks us from seeing the reality, our reality and God's reality. Those who clean themselves have a sight of God which is very close of the true sight of God, this sight is a certainty of God's presence".

Again what is with this disturbing hatred of knowledge and reason? What does it have to do with anything?

Do the Bible say "Blessed be those with a pure heart, because they will see God"?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[terryjohn]

What are the consequences of God being logical and only discoverable through great learning?

 

[Rajni]

The Orthodox Church holds that both Heaven and Hell are a condition of relationship with God that is either theosis or perdition, both of which are often spoken of as the effect of being in the presence of God. The Orthodox Church teaches that eternal damnation in the lake of fire and heaven occur within the same realm, which is being with God; God is Heaven, God is the Kingdom of God and Heaven.For one who hates God (as existence, as Life for example called Misotheism) such a place as in the presence of God, will be eternal suffering.
The Orthodox Church teaches that Heaven and Hell are in the same realm, and that Hell is not separation from God symbolically or physically,
Hell as taught in Orthodoxy is a place chosen.

I like this concept and it makes the most sense to me.

Even here on earth, our experience of things is largely determined by our
relation to it. Take flying in a plane, for example. Some people love that. I
absolutely hate it. Same plane, two very different 'realities'; one heavenly,
one hellish.

The only thing I would differ on ( and I could be wrong in this ) is that I don't
think that those experiencing God's presence as hellish would necessarily be in
that state eternally. I have a hunch that human stubbornness is no match for
God's magnetic personality ( no wrath needed on His part ).


-

 

[Wryetui]

Something about this statement seems very dishonest. Studying is the act of acquiring knowledge and analysis and also a bit of memorization. It's an act of absorbing. So why would this study be less effective if I have no faith? I would learn the same things right?



you asked



When I'm using the restroom?



A perspective that has no bearing on reality at large



You're saying we should abandon reason and our minds will ascend further past a certain threshold rather than descend. Sounds more backward than homeopathy.



Probably because anyone who takes a deep analysis of this will sense some things don't add up.



Again what is with this disturbing hatred of knowledge and reason? What does it have to do with anything?



What does that have to do with anything?

It has to do a lot. Look at you, you used all your rationalism, your "evidence" and your logic to disprove God and the Bible and you got exactly what you wanted, you are an atheist, but I prefer to stick with the thousands or maybe millions of priests, saints and monks that wanted to find God, and through faith, a clean heart, prayer, humility and God's grace they found Him, He revealed to them. You are here stuck up in this earth, in this materialism, in this naturalism because you cannot see beyond your own fleshly limits (actually you don't want to, it's not that you can't), but me and most of the christians want our souls to listen to their Creator and to meet Him after our death, we want to transcend this poor limits sin has dragged us into.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

It has to do a lot. Look at you

Yes yes I'm handsome.

You used all your rationalism, your "evidence" and your logic to disprove God and the Bible and you got exactly what you wanted

I didn't disprove God. But I wasn't convinced he exists. And the Bible didn't exactly mesh well with reality. So yea I discredited it via common sense.

You are an atheist

,

Sure am.

but I prefer to stick with the thousands or maybe millions of priests, saints and monks that wanted to find God

I believe that's called the "low hanging fruit"

and through faith, a clean heart, prayer, humility and God's grace they found Him, He revealed to them.

Because he doesn't want to reveal himself to people who're analytical? I had faith once remember???

I also cried out Jesus one night to come into my heart. Silly me for expecting something REAL to happen in my life.

That's when you realize "oh it's all a mind trick." I have to trick myself into believing it's real and then it is. That's why it's real to some and not others.

And to those who it's real for it's always a different type of real. Never just a solid real. Whether he's the God that found your car keys or the God that let you starve to death in agony, he's only real to those who've convinced themselves of such.

You are here stuck up in this earth, in this materialism, in this naturalism because you cannot see beyond your own fleshly limits

There's outer space.

(actually you don't want to, it's not that you can't)

Sure I do. I'd love for magic to be real, but I'm over the age of 5 so I have to be grounded in reality. But I'd love for it to be real.

but me and most of the christians want our souls to listen to their Creator and to meet Him after our death, we want to transcend this poor limits sin has dragged us into.

Ah the classic fear of death. It's priceless and kinda sad.

 

[PastorFreud]

I have a problem with the concept of hell, both the common evangelical explanation and the one in the OP, because they are not biblical. There are three words translated "hell" in the Christian scriptures, and a close analysis shows that the doctrines of hell are far removed from anything the original audience would have understood the original text to say. A lot of the doctrines of hell originated with apocryphal texts that were rejected from the canon. The texts were rejected, yet the doctrines found meager support in a few misapplications of scripture and remained. Jesus loves all his children and wants all of them to be home with him. And Jesus made that happen. We are all saved, just some of us recognize it sooner than others.

 

[Wryetui]

Yes yes I'm handsome.



I didn't disprove God. But I wasn't convinced he exists. And the Bible didn't exactly mesh well with reality. So yea I discredited it via common sense.

,

Sure am.



I believe that's called the "low hanging fruit"



Because he doesn't want to reveal himself to people who're analytical? I had faith once remember???

I also cried out Jesus one night to come into my heart. Silly me for expecting something REAL to happen in my life.

That's when you realize "oh it's all a mind trick." I have to trick myself into believing it's real and then it is. That's why it's real to some and not others.

And to those who it's real for it's always a different type of real. Never just a solid real. Whether he's the God that found your car keys or the God that let you starve to death in agony, he's only real to those who've convinced themselves of such.



There's outer space.



Sure I do. I'd love for magic to be real, but I'm over the age of 5 so I have to be grounded in reality. But I'd love for it to be real.



Ah the classic fear of death. It's priceless and kinda sad.

What does make you believe I fear death, making you to speak with condescendece to me? How pathethic.

 

[Wryetui]

I have a problem with the concept of hell, both the common evangelical explanation and the one in the OP, because they are not biblical. There are three words translated "hell" in the Christian scriptures, and a close analysis shows that the doctrines of hell are far removed from anything the original audience would have understood the original text to say. A lot of the doctrines of hell originated with apocryphal texts that were rejected from the canon. The texts were rejected, yet the doctrines found meager support in a few misapplications of scripture and remained. Jesus loves all his children and wants all of them to be home with him. And Jesus made that happen. We are all saved, just some of us recognize it sooner than others.

Yes, that happens if you take the Bible and start interpreting it by yourself with your own thoughts and mind, but, I'm sorry to say that the Church in the beggining didn't think that, the Saints and the Fathers of the Church (the ones that stated the very canon of the Bible you are reading today) compiled clear dogmas about Hell and thinks necessary for our salvation.