Views of Evolution Depend on Knowledge

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

School shootings (as well as rape, bullying, theft, even violence against teachers) are happening from coast to coast and north to south. Apparently the 'socialization' process is breaking down.

Yeah, funnily enough, there has actually been much fewer school shootings than you're being led to believe by the media.
And crime in general is on the decrease as well.

 

[theQuincunx5]

God has revealed himself to the west through Jesus Christ and subsequently Christianity.

I am sorry to make you uncomfortable. I understand. It isn't easy to discuss religion from within religion.

My apologies.

 

[pitabread]

Why try to explain the obvious? Some subjects don't require a formal study.

That sounds like a lazy excuse to not have to address one's cognitive bias.

Besides, if it was as "obvious" as you claim then the empirical data should support you. Yet even a cursory glance at social statistics in relation to religion don't back up what you are claiming. Otherwise the Bible Belt in the USA would rank a lot higher on social indices than it does.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Nice is a synonym of good.

We have a priest on trial for child molestation who everyone says is a "nice" man.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I am sorry to make you uncomfortable. I understand. It isn't easy to discuss religion from within religion.

My apologies.

Actually that's the best position from which to discuss it. If I weren't a deer hunter it would be foolish of me to discuss deer hunting (unless of course I were one of those misguided anti-hunters).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yeah, funnily enough, there has actually been much fewer school shootings than you're being led to believe by the media.
And crime in general is on the decrease as well.

I said they are "happening", not decreasing or increasing.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That sounds like a lazy excuse to not have to address one's cognitive bias.

Besides, if it was as "obvious" as you claim then the empirical data should support you. Yet even a cursory glance at social statistics in relation to religion don't back up what you are claiming. Otherwise the Bible Belt in the USA would rank a lot higher on social indices than it does.

Why single out the "Bible Belt", or is it just another red herring you guys reach for?

 

[theQuincunx5]

Actually that's the best position from which to discuss it. If I weren't a deer hunter it would be foolish of me to discuss deer hunting (unless of course I were one of those misguided anti-hunters).

I don't sense you have any real interest in discussing religion outside of your own. You don't seem to be aware of other religions and most people who are believers are usually unable to grant any points about any other religions since they are, usually, by definition "false".

It would be like discussing deer hunting with a deer.

 

[pitabread]

Why single out the "Bible Belt", or is it just another red herring you guys reach for?

Because it's arguably the most religious region of the United States and has the highest density of Protestant Christians to boot. Yet it also scores poorer on various social metrics of a healthy society compared to more secular states. Basically it stands in direct contrast to what you claim regarding Christianity and societal improvement.

It's not just in the USA though. The most religious countries in the world don't necessarily fare better than more secular nations.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't sense you have any real interest in discussing religion outside of your own. You don't seem to be aware of other religions and most people who are believers are usually unable to grant any points about any other religions since they are, usually, by definition "false".

It would be like discussing deer hunting with a deer.

What would be the point of me discussing other religions?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Because it's arguably the most religious region of the United States and has the highest density of Protestant Christians to boot. Yet it also scores poorer on various social metrics of a healthy society compared to more secular states. Basically it stands in direct contrast to what you claim regarding Christianity and societal improvement.

It's not just in the USA though. The most religious countries in the world don't necessarily fare better than more secular nations.

How many people are we talking about here, out of the entire nominal Christian population of two-plus billion?

 

[pitabread]

How many people are we talking about here out of the entire nominal Christian population?

Does that matter?

If we're talking about statistical measurements (as I am), it's the relative proportions that matter not absolute numbers. The only way absolute numbers really matter is if the sample sizes by which statistics are measured are both large enough and representative of the larger population to be statistically relevant.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Does that matter?

If we're talking about statistical measurements (as I am), it's the relative proportions that matter not absolute numbers. The only way absolute numbers really matter is if the sample sizes by which statistics are measured are both large enough and representative of the larger population to be statistically relevant.

Based on that the Bible Belt is......irrelevant.

 

[pitabread]

Based on that the Bible Belt is......irrelevant.

Not so. Like I said, it stands in direct contradiction to your own claims about the benefits of Christian belief to society.

 

[theQuincunx5]

What would be the point of me discussing other religions?

Exactly my point. It is threatening to you or it is meaningless to you. And I understand that. It is one of the freedoms that an atheist has. As the old saying goes: You and I are both atheists but I'm just atheistic about one more god than you are.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Exactly my point. It is threatening to you or it is meaningless to you. And I understand that. It is one of the freedoms that an atheist has. As the old saying goes: You and I are both atheists but I'm just atheistic about one more god than you are.

In the practical sense other religions are meaningless to me (although I do keep an eye on those Muslims).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Not so. Like I said, it stands in direct contradiction to your own claims about the benefits of Christian belief to society.

So it's Christianity (love your neighbor) that's the cause of our problems, not secularism?

Regarding the so-called "Bible Belt"; some posit, and I believe, that it is a small town and rural phenomenon across the entire country. There is no defined geographical or demographic "Bible Belt". And as 75 percent of Americans identify as Christian your problem is bigger than you imagine.

 

[theQuincunx5]

In the practical sense other religions are meaningless to me (although I do keep an eye on those Muslims).

That is my point. Information about analogues is "meaningless" to you. Not to those who see commonalities and differences between faiths.

The reason I like reading about different faiths is to see how religion develops and realize that everyone who has a religious faith believes it is real and all others are likely false. Not all religions are like that, some are more adaptable which introduces it's own interesting points about fundamental "truths" that religious faith presumably provides access to.

Your comments indicate to me that you are unable to actually view faith dispassionately and that truly makes good sense. Faith requires a certain sense of abandonment of investigation.

What does this say about the "truth values" of any knowledge one gets through faith? My guess is it makes it less valuable. But then I left faith many years ago. I know that when I was a believer it became very important to shore up my belief at all costs, rather than dispassionately looking at it.

And I would never want to remove someone's faith from them. So it makes sense the kinds of things you are saying about faith.

 

[theQuincunx5]

So it's Christianity (love your neighbor) that's the cause of our problems, not secularism?

No, it's the fact that so few Christians in America actually ever listen to things like "Love your neighbor". They are too busy keeping a wary eye on "those muslims" or "those mexicans" trying to sneak in.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is my point. Information about analogues is "meaningless" to you. Not to those who see commonalities and differences between faiths.

The reason I like reading about different faiths is to see how religion develops and realize that everyone who has a religious faith believes it is real and all others are likely false. Not all religions are like that, some are more adaptable which introduces it's own interesting points about fundamental "truths" that religious faith presumably provides access to.

Your comments indicate to me that you are unable to actually view faith dispassionately and that truly makes good sense. Faith requires a certain sense of abandonment of investigation.

What does this say about the "truth values" of any knowledge one gets through faith? My guess is it makes it less valuable. But then I left faith many years ago. I know that when I was a believer it became very important to shore up my belief at all costs, rather than dispassionately looking at it.

And I would never want to remove someone's faith from them. So it makes sense the kinds of things you are saying about faith.

My religion instructs me to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is true". I have done this (to the best of my ability), thus my complete satisfaction that what I believe is in fact true.

Regarding other religions; I acknowledge the moral commonalities between them and Christianity. It is the other peculiar practices that I have problems with. That Christianity is the superior religion is evidenced by the global outreach with the purpose of serving the basic human needs unmet by the religions of those peoples.