Victim Expert

[Verv]

I don't think so

Haha, well, it is usually conservatives who take jabs at victimhood.

Trust me -- I know -- I am a conservative.

 

[stan1980]

Haha, well, it is usually conservatives who take jabs at victimhood.

Trust me -- I know -- I am a conservative.

From observation, I'd say it is normally conservatives who misconstrue evidence or data, although I wouldn't say that is necessarily a conservative value. Cantata is saying be careful, as it's easy to put too much weight on the word of a victim, but they're not necessarily the best judges of a situation.

 

[cantata]

Haha, well, it is usually conservatives who take jabs at victimhood.

You're right. Things like "It's a woman's fault if she gets raped because she was asking for it" and "I guess if gay people didn't do stupid crazy things like holding hands in public then they wouldn't get their asses kicked" usually come from the conservative camp.

However, I notice that quite often, things like "The children's parents should have a say in the sentencing of child molesters!" and "Black people voted against proposition 8 so gay people can't be getting discriminated against!" tend to come from precisely the same people. In other words, as well as having difficulty empathising or putting a set of morals that conveniently will never apply to them ahead of people's suffering, some conservatives will also very cheerfully use the struggles of victims when it suits them to make intellectually dishonest emotional appeals for the purposes of winning an argument.

(Yes, I'm generalising. But you called me a conservative, you meanie!)

However, I'm not in any way denigrating the struggles of victims. I'm simply saying that you can't assume that because they've suffered, they are experts in some field of knowledge that most people would otherwise have to go through years of study in which to be proficient. They may well have useful insights into what it feels like to be a victim of the type that they are, and possibly the circumstances which led to their becoming a victim, and in that capacity they can offer useful data to policy-makers, psychologists, &c. But what definitely doesn't happen is that the moment something terrible happens, a shining light of truth from on high implants in your brain the ins and outs of railway engineering, the statistical likelihood of your child being abducted, or a nuanced understanding of the nature and causes of heroin addiction. In fact, it usually does precisely the opposite because a victim is emotionally involved and liable to overestimate risks. Yet to see how victims are frequently treated by the press, and by just about everyone else, come to think of it, you'd think that victims were the final authority.

Here's my lefty disclaimer. I feel great sympathy for anyone who has suffered rape, bereavement, an attack on their family member, a transport-related accident, mugging, arson, racial/sexual discrimination or abuse, domestic abuse, &c. &c. &c. But I do not want the foreign secretary to be someone whose only qualification is that she lost her entire family in the London terrorist bombings. Because she might be a bit biased and inclined to see things in a somewhat black-and-white fashion, no?

 

[wanderingone]

Here's my lefty disclaimer. I feel great sympathy for anyone who has suffered rape, bereavement, an attack on their family member, a transport-related accident, mugging, arson, racial/sexual discrimination or abuse, domestic abuse, &c. &c. &c. But I do not want the foreign secretary to be someone whose only qualification is that she lost her entire family in the London terrorist bombings. Because she might be a bit biased and inclined to see things in a somewhat black-and-white fashion, no?

I figured you'd come back and explain the difference between blame the victim and victim as expert.

I don't want years of vaccination success destroyed because diagnosis of autism has increased, or because of rare side effects given the attention of a world wide plague.

 

[BlackSabb]

I am not saying that victims should be ignored, but only that we shouldn't treat them as if everything they say about the thing that has caused them to become a victim is necessarily accurate, true, and insightful. The fact is that if you have been raped then in all likelihood you will overestimate the risk of rape, and you are likely to characterise rapists in a way which doesn't necessarily reflect reality in order to cope with your struggle. That's completely understandable but it doesn't make you right.

I think you are ever simplifying the reactions of victims. The fact is that most supporters of the death penalty for eg, have never encountered a murder of their family members or friends. And many people that have experienced a murder of a family member or friend still do not support the death penalty.

Stating that all rape victims will be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape is not correct. Some will, others won't. However, there are many people who have never been raped or come close to it that will still be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape.

I believe that victims can't be generalised as you suggest, and that their opinions and feelings are just as mixed and varied as the rest of non victims in society.

 

[stan1980]

I think you are ever simplifying the reactions of victims. The fact is that most supporters of the death penalty for eg, have never encountered a murder of their family members or friends. And many people that have experienced a murder of a family member or friend still do not support the death penalty.

Stating that all rape victims will be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape is not correct. Some will, others won't. However, there are many people who have never been raped or come close to it that will still be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape.

I believe that victims can't be generalised as you suggest, and that their opinions and feelings are just as mixed and varied as the rest of non victims in society.

Wow, talk about not reading a post properly!

 

[BlackSabb]

Wow, talk about not reading a post properly!

??????


Please explain.

 

[cantata]

What stan1980 said.

In more detail:

I think you are ever simplifying the reactions of victims. The fact is that most supporters of the death penalty for eg, have never encountered a murder of their family members or friends. And many people that have experienced a murder of a family member or friend still do not support the death penalty.

Er, I didn't say any of the above.

Stating that all rape victims will be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape is not correct. Some will, others won't. However, there are many people who have never been raped or come close to it that will still be paranoid and overestimate the risk of rape.

Er, I didn't say any of the above.

I believe that victims can't be generalised as you suggest, and that their opinions and feelings are just as mixed and varied as the rest of non victims in society.

Er, I didn't claim otherwise.

I didn't say that all victims are paranoid or that everyone who supports the death penalty has had a relative murdered. I said that if you want to know what the likelihood is of getting raped, or whether the death penalty is an effective deterrent, there is no reason to assume that rape victims or those with murdered family members will be able to give you expert information on these subjects, and in fact, there is reason to suspect that they might be some of the least appropriate people to consult because of their emotional involvement with the issue.

The people to consult are the experts in the field. Being a victim doesn't magically make you become an expert.

So, in other words, what stan1980 said. Read the thread.

 

[TheBear]

bump