Very Interested in Presbyterianism

[MandoosetheGoose]

Hello!

I was raised Catholic but am right now exploring other denominations. I am drawn to the Presbyterian church but don't know much about it, other than what I have read in certain historical novels by Liz Curtis Higgs (Christian author of Thorn in My Heart; Fair is the Rose; Whence Came a Prince).

How does the Presbyterian Church differ and compare to the Catholic Church?

 

[AMR]

An excellent question!

It would require quite a bit to lay out all the differences. The short answer is that Presbyterianism's foundation rests upon the five solas of the Reformation:

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

Presbyterianism places a very high view on the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace:

T = The Problem (Total Depravity) – Grace Needed
U = The Remedy (Unconditional Election) – Grace Conceived
L = The Means (Limited Atonement) – Grace Merited
I = The Application (Irresistible Grace) – Grace Applied
P = The Result (Perseverance of the Saints) – Grace Preserved

These specific doctrines have been popularly called Calvinism, after John Calvin. A summary follows:

TOTAL DEPRAVITY (Total Inability) - The Calvinist believes, as did Martin Luther, that man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinist believes that God’s election is truly unconditional. The foreknowledge of God is based upon His decree, plan, and purpose; it is the expression of His will and good pleasure, not a response to man's free-will choices. Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity. In this regard the Calvinist understands election as an example of God’s "love before time."

LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinist believes that in order to accomplish the specific will of the Father, Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect. Christ died for the sins of men without distinction as to race or nationality (that is, Jew or Gentile). Christ provided a complete and effectual atonement for their sins. Those whom Christ redeemed, Christ really and truly redeemed (actual not potential). Though infinite in value, Christ's atoning work was specific in its design. Some Calvinists prefer to call this "definite atonement" or "particular redemption". The death of Christ at Calvary does not make men savable, but rather it saves men completely. The Cross is a completed, successful work that requires no assistance from man. The Calvinist believes that Christ died for all of the sins of the elect.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinist believes that the Holy Spirit, in agreement with the electing will of the Father and the atoning work of the Son, does in the fullness of time quicken the dead spirit of a man and give to him the gift of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Calvinist, the logical order of salvation is regeneration first, followed by faith/believing. Since dead men do not respond, God must make them alive first (Eph 2:4-5); regeneration, of necessity, precedes any action or activity on the part of man, including faith and repentance. Hence, every single individual upon whom the Spirit of God moves savingly is regenerated, born again, adopted, grafted in, and saved eternally.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinist believes that since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.

Presbyterianism is much more than this, for it is a system of beliefs that also encompasses church polity and Christian social action defined best in the Westminster Standards (see list below), that all Presbyterian churches assent to as best representing the Scripture's teachings:

Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF):
Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Larger Confession (WLC):
Westminster Larger Catechism

Westminster Shorter Confession (WSC):
Westminster Shorter Catechism

The sticky post in this forum also contains some useful resources you may want to review:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7398432/

For starters, review the WCF and you will be well on your way towards understanding the Presbyterian walk of faith. Feel free to ask questions!

You may also want to visit one of the conservative Presbyterian churches in your area, such as a PCA church (my denomination).

AMR

 

[hedrick]

AMR has given you a pretty common answer. However it's from the point of view of a conservative Presbyterian denomination, and from someone who is involved in theological discussion here a lot. Note that I'm from the PCUSA, which is what much churches labelled "Presbyterian" in the US will be. It's a moderately liberal denomination. AMR's denomination is the PCA, which is more conservative.

(I believe you're from Canada. I don't know the situation there. The Presbyterian Church in Canada may be the equivalent of the PCUSA here, but the situation is complicated because many Presbyterians joined the United Church of Canada. The Presbyterian Church in Canada ordains women, and seems to have much the same mixed feelings on homosexuality that the PCUSA does.)

For more normal members I think that posting overemphasizes the importance of TULIP. Not that we don't believe in the priority of God's grace: we do. But neither Calvin nor most Presbyterian churches focus on it quite as much as that posting implies. This is particularly true in the PCUSA.

For most people, the biggest difference from the Catholic church is that we're a lot less legalistic, and our members bear more responsibility than the clergy for both their own Christian life, and for leadership in our congregation and the denomination as a whole. We're in a Catholic area (central New Jersey). Many of our members are former Catholics. That's generally why they're with us. While I think this is a good thing, there are dangers: when you don't go to confession regularly and generally have less specific supervision from the clergy, it's easier to get out of the habit of prayer and worship. And Presbyterian churches (particularly smaller ones), depend very heavily on getting members to put in time and effort.

These differences are actually shared with most of the Protestant denominations. I note that you didn't ask the difference between us and other Protestant denominations, but it's worth noting at least some:

CHURCH ORGANIZATION

I view Catholics as one extreme on how to organize a Church. Most responsibility for both the way the Church works and its theology is concentrated in a monolithic, all-male, celibate hierarchy.

The other extreme is seen among some Protestants: Individuals are expected to interpret Scripture for themselves; churches are independent, in the sense that no one can tell them what to do; they often deny any authority to Christian tradition.

Presbyterian churches try to strike a balance. Individuals are expected to know Scripture, and any individual has the right to call the Church to account for what it's doing on Scriptural grounds. But there is a Reformed tradition, which we are committed to operating within (the PCA has a stronger commitment to supporting traditional Presbyterian theology), and we do theology as a community. We are a connectional denomination: pastors are not members of the local church, but of a larger organization (the Presbytery). The Presbytery handles situations such as pastoral malfeasance, which it is often difficult for separate congregations to deal with, pastoral training, and generally acts to support the member churches and pastors. The Presbytery is half clergy and half elders. That gives it a more democratic flavor than Catholic leadership, although I have some qualms about using the term "democratic" about Reformed leadership. (The problem is that democratic implies representatives of the people. Strictly speaking, although Presbyterian leaders are elected, they're ordained, which places their responsibility towards God, not the people who elected them.) Presbytery and all higher structures have moderators who traditionally alternate between being clergy and elders.

Our leaders are ordained. We consider elders to hold the same New Testament office as pastors, although a different variant of it. Unlike AMR's church, we have female deacons, elders and pastors, and many PCUSA churches have youth as deacons and elders. (Some PCUSA churches also have gay deacons, elders and clergy. While there's a provision of the Constitution that was intended to prevent this, the most recent General Assembly issued an Authoritative Interpretation making it unenforceable. The PCC seems to have enforced their policy in at least some cases.)

WORSHIP

Presbyterian worship varies, but it tends to have a more structured liturgy than many other Protestant churches. Our tradition believes that worship is not just a matter of taste, but that there are specific Biblical mandates for worship, and we are only entitled to worship in accordance with those mandates.

Our concept of the Lord's Supper is somewhere between the Catholic and many other Protestants: we believe that we are really in contact with Christ's body and blood, although in a spiritual sense. (We don't think the bread and wine vanish, as Catholics do.) At least in the PCUSA, many communion services have at their heart a Great Prayer of Thanksgiving which is based on a 4th Century model.

There's a more general answer from the point of view of the PCUSA in "Presbyterian 101" at Presbyterian 101 — Ministries & Programs — GAMC . The PCC's web site is The Presbyterian Church in Canada. Unlike the PCUSA's site, you can find information about the PCC pretty easily on their web site. (The PCUSA's site has recently been reorganized. It has excellent content, but you can no longer find it.)

 

[ThePresbyteers]

. . .Note that I'm from the PCUSA, which is what much churches labelled "Presbyterian" in the US will be. It's a moderately liberal denomination.. . .

Interesting about the churches in Canada.

I stubbled across 7-point Calvinism. What happened to 5-point Calvinism beats me. If I look further, I might find 10-point Calvinism.

How many points are need to create a new denomination?

 

[ThePresbyteers]

. . .Note that I'm from the PCUSA, which is what much churches labelled "Presbyterian" in the US will be. . . .

I'm a Logo artist and an identity specialist meaning communicating with society using graphics. While helping large corporations make sense of their brand or identity, I find "Presbyterian in America" and Presbyterian in United States of America" a bit strange. My job is to help create LESS confusion in identity or brands. PCA and PCUSA identity brands are confusing and ain't helping Americans or themselves.

 

[hedrick]

I'm a Logo artist and an identity specialist meaning communicating with society using graphics. While helping large corporations make sense of their brand or identity, I find "Presbyterian in America" and Presbyterian in United States of America" a bit strange. My job is to help create LESS confusion in identity or brands. PCA and PCUSA identity brands are confusing and ain't helping Americans or themselves.

Ah, but you don't understand. Both denominations think they're the true Presbyterian church for the US. Sort of like the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China. And the current Presbyterian Church (USA) was formed as a merger of the Presbyterian Church in the USA with the Presbyterian Church in the US. If you look at the history of Presbyterian denominations merging and splitting, it's enough to make your head spin. It might be better just to issue unique serial numbers.

 

[AMR]

Yup, see the chart here:

U.S. Presbyterianism

AMR