Verses that prove regeneration comes before faith

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Hi AW,

Yes, these verses you posted do speak of regeneration.

Hallelujah we agree on something!

But none of them address any order between regeneration and faith.

And the agreement was short lived, but not surprising, and of course I disagree. While I can agree none of them explicitly state an order, an order is positively stated. God takes the initiative in salvation, a supernatural divine initiative comes first. An order is also implied through negative statements, that is through what man cannot do.

In fact, only 1 of the 41 verses even mentions believing, which is Jn 1:12, and in that verse there is no order presented at all.

Exactly, it should arouse some curiosity. How is it that believing comes first, yet it is not even mentioned? If believing comes first, that is believing without regeneration, then 1 Cor 2:11 has it wrong, unregenerate believers would know the things of God...but that contradicts Scripture on many levels.

It tells us that those who believe in Christ receive the right to become the children of God.

"...if anyone makes the assistance of grace
depend on the humility or obedience of man
and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself
that we are obedient and humble,
he contradicts the Apostle who says,
"What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7),
and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
(Council of Orange: Canon 6)

And v.13 tells us that regeneration is God's perogative alone, not man's choice.

Someone pinch me, did we just agree twice in one sitting?

btw, your posts include this statement:

According to this statement, God ultimately chooses who will believe then, as I have been pointing out. But where are the verses that tell us this?

Good idea, for another thread.

Rather, 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is well pleased to save those who believe. From that, it is clear that He chooses to save those who believe.

Those who believe, are those who God chooses, as Jesus made abundantly clear throughout the Gospels, even in the statement "the Son quickeneth whom He will".

Why do Calvinists believe what isn't stated in Scripture?

Touche, you said; "In fact, only 1 of the 41 verses even mentions believing".

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

A nail in the coffin of the free will faith before regeneration view…

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:23-26

Jesus was not teaching that His followers had to sell everything they own, and live as a poor homeless beggars, denying even their need to eat. In fact, that's not even the point. One aspect is clear, the rich man was not willing...of course Jesus knew all along how he would respond, and when His beloved discipiles asked "who then can be saved?" He did not say "anyone who believes in me" or anything remotely close. What He did say is depressing, for those who do not believe. "With men, this is IMPOSSIBLE" Yes I do believe this implies a definite order a supernatural divine initiative.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And the agreement was short lived, but not surprising, and of course I disagree. While I can agree none of them explicitly state an order, an order is positively stated.

If an order is not explicitly stated, then how can an order be positively be stated? That statement doesn't make sense to me.

So, can you just take 1 verse and show me the words that you see as a "positive statement" of regeneration preceding faith?

God takes the initiative in salvation, a supernatural divine initiative comes first.

I agree with this, but not the way you think. God already took the initiative in several ways. First, He created mankind to seek Him. That alone should indicate that man is able to respond to God. Second, He revealed Himself to mankind, so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing Him.

God didn't need to do either of these things, but He did. That proves that He has already taken the initiative.

An order is also implied through negative statements, that is through what man cannot do.

OK. Show me the verse that says, indicates, or suggests that man is unable to believe unless or before regeneration. That would convince me.

Exactly, it should arouse some curiosity. How is it that believing comes first, yet it is not even mentioned? If believing comes first, that is believing without regeneration, then 1 Cor 2:11 has it wrong, unregenerate believers would know the things of God...but that contradicts Scripture on many levels.

I've never argued that believing comes first. Faith and regeneration occur at the same time, something that several Calvinists have also agreed to on CF. They believe that the "logical order" is regeneration before faith, but can't prove it from Scripture.

I would argue that if one wants to find a "logical order", look no farther than Eph 2:5 and 8.

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Paul here equates being made alive with being saved. Otherwise, why the last phrase?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Here, we see a clear "order"; saved through faith. No one is saved prior to faith, obviously.

So if you want to argue a logical order, faith would precede regeneration. Though they both occur at the same time.

"...if anyone makes the assistance of grace
depend on the humility or obedience of man
and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself
that we are obedient and humble,
he contradicts the Apostle who says,
"What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7),
and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10).
(Council of Orange: Canon 6)

What does "assistance of grace" mean to you? It has no meaning to me. So I have no idea what point this statement is trying to make.

Someone pinch me, did we just agree twice in one sitting?

I've made that point a number of times.

Good idea, for another thread.

Since there are no verses that tell us that God chooses who will believe, maybe not such a good idea.

Those who believe, are those who God chooses, as Jesus made abundantly clear throughout the Gospels, even in the statement "the Son quickeneth whom He will".

I think you missed the point of 1 Cor 1:21. Your statement suggests that God chose who will believe, but that verse says nothing of the kind. Rather, it tells us that God is pleased to save those who believe. You can swap "pleased" with "chooses" and the meaning is the same.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe. Not, as Calvinism would have it, God chooses who will believe. Do you see the difference?

 

[FreeGrace2]

A nail in the coffin of the free will faith before regeneration view…

I don't see no nail.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” - Matthew 19:23-26

Jesus was not teaching that His followers had to sell everything they own, and live as a poor homeless beggars, denying even their need to eat. In fact, that's not even the point. One aspect is clear, the rich man was not willing...of course Jesus knew all along how he would respond, and when His beloved discipiles asked "who then can be saved?" He did not say "anyone who believes in me" or anything remotely close. What He did say is depressing, for those who do not believe. "With men, this is IMPOSSIBLE" Yes I do believe this implies a definite order a supernatural divine initiative.

The verse addresses salvation, not faith. Jesus was telling His disciples that man cannot save himself, because of the question "who then can be saved?"

I was surprised to read your statement "what He did say is depressing, for those who do not believe". Wow. That is exactly right regarding Calvinism. For those Christ didn't die for, they can't be saved. They can't believe. That is depressing.

Jesus was clear about salvation (not faith). Man cannot save himself, because God alone is Who saves.

If the disciples' question was "who then can believe?", you would have a point.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If an order is not explicitly stated, then how can an order be positively be stated? That statement doesn't make sense to me.

By explicitly, I mean a verse that obviously plainly states: "this is the order of salvation..." But then again, the same method of implication is used in many doctrines like the doctrine of the Trinity for instance. There is no definitive Scripture explicitly stating or laying out the doctrine of the Trinity.

So, can you just take 1 verse and show me the words that you see as a "positive statement" of regeneration preceding faith?

When I say "divine initiative" I am referring to an order where God takes the initiative a divine supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit. An example of this in Scripture is Ezekiel 11:17-20. I really love this example, later in Ezekiel we read: "Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. “I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.” Ezekiel 37:4-6. All for the glory of God alone!

I agree with this, but not the way you think. God already took the initiative in several ways. First, He created mankind to seek Him. That alone should indicate that man is able to respond to God. Second, He revealed Himself to mankind, so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing Him.

I would have to similarly challenge your assumption that "He created mankind to seek Him" because we read just the opposite in Scripture, that none seek Him. Which rules out the second assumption "indicate that man is able to respond to God". Where is the Scripture to support these assumptions? He created mankind to obey and glorify Him, to be in relationship with Him. But we know how that went down. Only the regenerated man is able to respond in ways that pleases God. Because of the fall, mankind is like a valley of dry bones, unable to please God, respond to God, because faith in the true and living God is dead.

Since there are no verses that tell us that God chooses who will believe, maybe not such a good idea.

A small sample of Scriptures:

1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen generation"
James 2:5 "Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith"
2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"
Eph 1:3 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world"
1 Cor 1:27-28
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine"
John 15:19 " I chose you out of the world"
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you"

Scripture is clear that God chooses and chooses who before the foundation of the world.

I think you missed the point of 1 Cor 1:21. Your statement suggests that God chose who will believe, but that verse says nothing of the kind. Rather, it tells us that God is pleased to save those who believe. You can swap "pleased" with "chooses" and the meaning is the same.

As the verses above indicate God chooses and chooses [who will believe] who before the foundation of the world. The Lord Jesus even told his disciples "You did not choose Me, but I chose you". It is clear He did not choose them because they believed, rather they believed because He chose them.

iow, God chooses to save those who believe. Not, as Calvinism would have it, God chooses who will believe. Do you see the difference?

Scripture is clear that God chooses before we are even born, and when God chooses, He does not make mistakes, when God chooses, it will come to be, it will happen, there is no might or maybe, no uncertainty about it. So it is not as though God lays waiting for man to make the first move, God is not the gentleman some suppose Him to be, Rich Mullins used to call God a "wildman" and I am understanding more and more what he meant by it, the tame God waits on man, the wild God takes the initiative.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I've gotta single out 2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"

Does this verse not tell us plainly?

Also I wanted to comment on 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

What is meant by "all things"? Does this not mean a new heart, mind, Spirit? Would this not include faith, or is faith not one of those "things"? Yes faith must be one of those things, because the relationship between the heart and mind and faith is so close, because the relationship between the heart and mind and will and it's desires are so intertwined. The old dead faith, has not the will or desire to choose God, it has no more life than the dead faith of demons who tremble and believe and chose rebellion against God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

By explicitly, I mean a verse that obviously plainly states: "this is the order of salvation..."

But none of the verses you provided "obviously plainly stated" what you claim.

But then again, the same method of implication is used in many doctrines like the doctrine of the Trinity for instance. There is no definitive Scripture explicitly stating or laying out the doctrine of the Trinity.

Apples to oranges. There are many verses that tell us that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. And some verses include all of them in 1 verse. So that is obvious and plain. The Trinity exists. But there are NO verses that obviously plainly tell us any order between regeneration and faith.

I'm amazed that Calvinists continue to make that claim.

When I say "divine initiative" I am referring to an order where God takes the initiative a divine supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit. An example of this in Scripture is Ezekiel 11:17-20. I really love this example, later in Ezekiel we read: "Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. “I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.” Ezekiel 37:4-6. All for the glory of God alone!

God has already taken the "divine initiative" in at least 2 ways.

First, He created mankind to seek Him, per Acts 17:26-27
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind tp live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us

Second, He revealed Himself to mankind, per Rom 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

I would have to similarly challenge your assumption that "He created mankind to seek Him" because we read just the opposite in Scripture, that none seek Him.

See above for God creating mankind to seek Him. However, Rom 3:10 isn't about every person in humanity, as you claim. 3:9 makes the point that both Jew and Gentile alike are all sinners. Then, v.10 begins with "as it is written...", signifying that Paul is about to quote from the OT. In fact, he quotes from 6 different passages to illustrate HOW mankind sins. Do you really think 3:10 refers to everyone? Then what do you do with 3:15-16?
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths

Have you shed the blood of others? And created destruction and misery in the paths of others? Do you think everyone has? That wouldn't make sense.

Which rules out the second assumption "indicate that man is able to respond to God". Where is the Scripture to support these assumptions? He created mankind to obey and glorify Him, to be in relationship with Him. But we know how that went down. Only the regenerated man is able to respond in ways that pleases God. Because of the fall, mankind is like a valley of dry bones, unable to please God, respond to God, because faith in the true and living God is dead.

All of this is irrelevant because I have given you the verse that clearly and unambiguously tells us that He created mankind to seek Him.

A small sample of Scriptures:

1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen generation"
James 2:5 "Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith"
2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"
Eph 1:3 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world"
1 Cor 1:27-28
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine"
John 15:19 " I chose you out of the world"
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you"

Verses about being chosen, or elected. So?

Scripture is clear that God chooses and chooses who before the foundation of the world.

Yes. But chosen for what, is the question. You think it is being chosen to believe, but you cannot find any verses that actually says that. Or even suggests that.

As the verses above indicate God chooses and chooses [who will believe] who before the foundation of the world.

None of the verses says anything about being chosen to believe. So why do you claim that?

The Lord Jesus even told his disciples "You did not choose Me, but I chose you". It is clear He did not choose them because they believed, rather they believed because He chose them.

What about John 6:70?
Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

Judas never believed and is in hell as a result of that.

Are you aware of the 6 categories of election in the Bible?

Scripture is clear that God chooses before we are even born, and when God chooses, He does not make mistakes, when God chooses, it will come to be, it will happen, there is no might or maybe, no uncertainty about it.

This isn't the debate. Focus.

So it is not as though God lays waiting for man to make the first move, God is not the gentleman some suppose Him to be, Rich Mullins used to call God a "wildman" and I am understanding more and more what he meant by it, the tame God waits on man, the wild God takes the initiative.

I've already addressed the issue of God already having taken the first step. Actually, the first two steps, given Acts 17:26-27, and Rom 1:19-20.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The verse addresses salvation, not faith. Jesus was telling His disciples that man cannot save himself, because of the question "who then can be saved?"

Yes salvation...but not faith? I thought faith and salvation were married, even in your view, for what purpose are we divorcing them here? Of course I have to disagree, the salvation of a man is intimately intertwined with faith, and in the context, the rich man had not the desire, the will to comply with Jesus' demands, because he had not the faith.

I was surprised to read your statement "what He did say is depressing, for those who do not believe". Wow. That is exactly right regarding Calvinism. For those Christ didn't die for, they can't be saved. They can't believe. That is depressing.

It is exactly right for every Christian who believes God is omniscient, immutable, is just, and will one day pour out the wrath of His justice on unsaved mankind. Do not suppose for one second that the sentiment applies exclusively to Calvinists, because the truth is, it does not. Ask any Christian who believes in eternal damnation, how they feel about the thought of spending eternity apart from a close loved one, and if they have not mixed feelings, one of them being depression, something may be amiss with them. Truth that depresses us, is still truth. Do you not find it the least bit depressing that in Noah's day, nobody listened to his preaching? Nobody heeded his warnings, and God gave them many years to decide, to choose (all while knowing they would not), and none chose to live, only those with favor from God, Noah and his family lived. Have you stopped to think about how "depressing" mankind (in general) is to God? Yes, God has emotions, He has feelings, for example: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Matt 23:37 Depressing, but true.

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him."

Jesus was clear about salvation (not faith). Man cannot save himself, because God alone is Who saves.

If I did not know better, I'd say you too believe in monergistic regeneration, because apart from the words in parenthesis, that sounds mighty Calvinistic of you! The problem is, you seem to not understand the relationship and or nature of faith, that in Scripture, the two are inseperable. How can we talk about accomplishing the salvation of a man, without at the same time be talking about faith? "Who then can be saved?" Refers to accomplishing the salvation of men, how can it be accomplished without faith? The Lord Jesus could have easily said "those who believe in me", but that is not what He said, because like the rich man, we have not the desire, nor are we willing, therefore with man it is impossible, and so faith before regeneration is impossible.

If the disciples' question was "who then can believe?", you would have a point.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

I missed the part where it say's this is the work of man, that you believe...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've gotta single out 2 Thess 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth"

Does this verse not tell us plainly?

Yes, it tells us plainly WHO He chooses to save; believers. The wording does not support the idea that He chooses who will believe.

Also I wanted to comment on 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

Yes, because of the "new birth", we are a new creation.

What is meant by "all things"? Does this not mean a new heart, mind, Spirit? Would this not include faith, or is faith not one of those "things"?

No, now you're just squinting real hard. What is new is the Christian way of life. All because man has believed. Certainly you must agree that faith precedes salvation. So the "all things" are what comes to those who believe.

Yes faith must be one of those things, because the relationship between the heart and mind and faith is so close, because the relationship between the heart and mind and will and it's desires are so intertwined.

You are making an assumption, and without any verses that say what you claim.

The old dead faith, has not the will or desire to choose God, it has no more life than the dead faith of demons who tremble and believe and chose rebellion against God.

There is no such thing as the "old dead faith" for those who haven't believed. That's why they are called unbelievers. They haven't believed.

And you are misusing James 2:18. They don't have "dead faith". James was clear that they DID believe that "God is One". Their belief in that was very much alive! They certainly do believe that; He created each one of them, and most of the accounts in the gospels of Jesus confronting demons has them fully recognizing who He is.

 

[AndOne]

So I decided to revise and expand the list above and include an argument...

Verses pertaining directly to Regeneration​

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deuteronomy 30:6

“Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’ “And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. “Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, “that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. - Ezekiel 11:17-20

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.. - Ezekiel 36:27

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12 [also see Matt 5:8, Matt 13:13-23, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, Luke 10:24, John 5:37, John 12:40]

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3:3-8

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. No one believes unless God grants it]

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Corinthians 2:12

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior," - Titus 3:5-6

A few indirectly related verses​

"...it [election] depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." - 1 Thess 1:4-5

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Then He [Jesus] spoke a parable to them: “No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old. “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. “But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. “And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, ‘The old is better.’ - Luke 5:36-39 [Matt 9:16-17, Mark 2:21-22] (such is the desires of dead faith of the unregenerate non-Christian, which cannot come before regeneration, because it wills not)

Finally an argument from perhaps a not so obvious Scripture:​

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:3

According to this verse, assuming the born again believer alone is sealed by the Holy Spirit, regeneration (though not stated using the terminology) is required to (honestly, sincerely from the heart with conviction) say that Jesus is Lord. Often the non-Christian is bagered to confess, to accept, to trust Jesus as Lord, and if faith comes before regeneration, how is it they can have faith that Jesus is Lord, but cannot say it? How is it they can confess, accept, and trust Jesus as Lord, except that they have FIRST been regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit? How can the unregenerate without eyes to see and ears to hear, say in faith that Jesus is Lord?

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. - 1 Corinthians 2:11

Thanks AW - thanks for the expansion...

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Thanks AW - thanks for the expansion...

My pleasure, I am enjoying the much needed Bible study.

 

[AndOne]

My pleasure, I am enjoying the much needed Bible study.

You are the one doing all the schooling to!