Verses that prove regeneration comes before faith

[AndOne]

If I was only giving you an opinion, I would certainly agree with you. But I wasn't giving my opinion. I was stating what Wm Mounce, author of "Greek for the Rest of Us", said about grammar rules regarding present participles and their relation to the action of the main verb. In fact, it was on page 184. btw, I never suggested that I was expert in Greek. That's WHY I defer to those who are.

I've never heard of him. Can you provide another scholar that confirms this use of grammar in Greek.

You can't understand the underlining relationship between words without knowing grammar rules. And just reading any particular translation doesn't provide that kind of information. All you are doing is dismissing grammar rules that provide proper understanding of how present participles relate to main verbs.

But that's rather convenient for you, huh. Especially since the rule refutes your claim.

But go ahead and stick with whatever translation you're comfortable with. I will continue to refer to experts who explain what is not apparent from the English.

So are you telling me that all of the English translates got it wrong? That's quite convenient for you....

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've never heard of him. Can you provide another scholar that confirms this use of grammar in Greek.

It's really not my problem that you seem to want to "pick and choose" who you will accept as a scholar. He wrote a Greek grammar text. You can take it or leave it. But I have cited a legitimate source.

So are you telling me that all of the English translates got it wrong? That's quite convenient for you....

OK, please tell me how any translation got the translation wrong. I thought we were discussing 1 Jn 5:1. I have no problem with how it is translated.

 

[AndOne]

Your non-answer here proves my point. Thanks for that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your non-answer here proves my point. Thanks for that.

Here's what was really said:
you: So are you telling me that all of the English translates got it wrong? That's quite convenient for you....
Me: OK, please tell me how any translation got the translation wrong. I thought we were discussing 1 Jn 5:1. I have no problem with how it is translated.

Your question was meaningless, and I had to ask a question in order to get you to clarify that meaningless question, which you conveniently dodged.

Thanks for your non-answer.

 

[AndOne]

Question - are you ever wrong about anything?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Question - are you ever wrong about anything?

Irrelevant question. All humans are FLAWED. Your question was out of order.

 

[Don Maurer]

Originally Posted by Don Maurer

One correction on how you are misrepresenting Reformed theology.... Reformed people are not saying that the action of regeneration is before faith in time, but rather it is before regeneration in logical order.
​

So, are you saying "it" (faith) is before regeneration in logical order?

FG2, why do you keep confusing logical order and order in time. If I speak of a logical order, you take it to say it to mean regeneration preceeds faith in time. If I speak of time, you speak of a logical order.

I am saying that faith and regeneration occur at the same instant in time, however, regeneration precedes faith in the logical order. That is the usual Reformed theology. For you to assume anything different about reformed theology would be a straw man. How are you going to refute Calvinism if you fail to even understand it?

Regeneration is the cause of faith, but they both happen in the same instant.

Where in the text do you find any cause of faith to be regeneration or anything else?

So let me get this.... please repeat this statement because I would be totally amazed if you are saying that regeneration does nothing. Does regeneration cause anything at all?

If you kept your interpretation consistently, it would result in some rather works oriented theology. Let me illustrate by using some other passages in 1 John.
1 John 2:29 - πας ο ποιων την δικαιοσυνην εξ αυτου γεγεννηται
The verb form here is identical to the one in 1 john 5:1. You also have the participal ο ποιων in the phrase πας ο ποιων την δικαιοσυνην. So then, going by your rule of interpretation, we must be righteous to be born again in 1 john 2:29.

No I don't make that claim, nor does what I've said about 1 Jn 5:1 result in that claim. If the verse has a present participle in "everyone participatiing righteousness", then it is saying that those who presently practice righteousness have been regenerated.

Actually what you said about 1 John 5:1 is making that claim exactly and it results in that claim. The grammar of 1 John 2:29 and 1 john 5:1 is identical. In 1 John 2:29 you say "those who presently practice righteousness have been regenerated." Now because the grammar is indentical, I can take the word "righteousness" out of your sentence and put in the word "faith." So then to use your statement in 1 John 2:29 and put it with the words of 1 john 5:1 it would come out, "those who presently practice faith have been regenerated."

The bottom line is this. Since the grammar of each verse is identical, you cannot claim that regeneration precedes righteousness if you deny regeneration precedes faith. On the other hand, if you affirm in 1 John 2:29 that regeneration precedes righteousness, then you must affirm in 1 John 5:1 that regeneration precedes faith.

All I am asking you to do is to consistently apply your rule of grammar that your using in 1 John 5:1 to 1 John 2:29.

And I haven't said that faith causes one to be born again. Please review what I have said about 1 Jn 5:1. So you have misunderstood me.

The point is that you are saying that regeneration occurs after faith in the logical order. If that is true, then to be consistent, you must say that regeneration occurs after righteousness in the logical order. Again, the grammar of 1 John 5:1 and 2:29 are identical so you must say the same thing about both passages. The only difference is that in 2:29 the word righteousness occurs and in 5:1 the word faith occurs.

As well, misunderstanding is another hallmark of a failed argument. You are arguing against what I DON'T believe.

LOL, oh I understand and recognize your error and that you cannot be consistent.

Where do you see any "cause" in 1 Jn 5:1? All I see is that those who presently believe have been born again. What word make you think of regeneration causing anything?

The concept of "cause" I am taking from the perfect passive tense of regeneration. If you would prefer me to be more technically correct in the words I choose, then I would choose the word "result." The result of regeneration is faith. The perfect is the tense where you have a past action that has results until the present. In both 1 John 2:29 and 5:1 the verb is perfect tense and the present tense participle is the result of the action of God in regeneration.

There is a problem here. You are a person without any greek training and you are telling people here how to read greek who have greek training. Tell me, if the roles were reversed and people with your theology had all the training, what would you think of someone telling you how to read greek who has no greek training?

I am familiar with Mounce, the person you quote. I am not sure that I have that source. Sometime I might look up what Mounce says in the books from him I have.

We can also be consistent with 1 John 2:29 and regeneration also causes righteousness.

Again, not true, as real believers can be quite unrighteous as well. So your point isn't taken.

No, believers are not unrighteous. What you mean is that believers still commit personal sin. The point of the text is that righteousness is the result of regeneration. Are you denying that righteousness is the result of regeneration?

Failed understanding = failed argument. Please review my actual view.


As you have by now noticed, I have not ignored your post, but please notice that I have pointed out your misunderstanding of my point.

Yeah yeah, I know you cannot make a post without making weird and unsubstantiated claims like the one above. I did not misunderstand you point, but you are not dealing with the fact that the grammar is identical in the two passages and any claim you make for 1 John 5:1 can be used in 1 john 2:29.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am saying that faith and regeneration occur at the same instant in time, however, regeneration precedes faith in the logical order. That is the usual Reformed theology.

Why hasn't reformed theology been able to provide any verses that indicate that? You speak of "logical order", but that's just from your perspective. Show me the Bible's perspective. I'd argue differently from Scripture.

How are you going to refute Calvinism if you fail to even understand it?

Silly question. I understand your claims. I give Scripture that refutes those claims. Simple as that.

So let me get this.... please repeat this statement because I would be totally amazed if you are saying that regeneration does nothing. Does regeneration cause anything at all?

Of course. It causes believers to be "new creatures" per 2 Cor 5:17.

But you totally misunderstood what I did say. Here it is again:
"Where in the text do you find any cause of faith to be regeneration or anything else?"

I asked, and you dodged, where you find faith to "cause anything". Now, can you answer that question, please?

Actually what you said about 1 John 5:1 is making that claim exactly and it results in that claim. The grammar of 1 John 2:29 and 1 john 5:1 is identical. In 1 John 2:29 you say "those who presently practice righteousness have been regenerated." Now because the grammar is indentical, I can take the word "righteousness" out of your sentence and put in the word "faith."

No, you can't. Well, you can...but you'd just be wrong to do that. The word in 1 Jn 5:1 is a present participle, "believing ones". It isn't even "faith" or "belief". The word describes people, not an action.

So then to use your statement in 1 John 2:29 and put it with the words of 1 john 5:1 it would come out, "those who presently practice faith have been regenerated."

OK. Where do you get "cause" from that?

The bottom line is this. Since the grammar of each verse is identical, you cannot claim that regeneration precedes righteousness if you deny regeneration precedes faith. On the other hand, if you affirm in 1 John 2:29 that regeneration precedes righteousness, then you must affirm in 1 John 5:1 that regeneration precedes faith.

You keep missing the boat here. It isn't "faith" that is the subject, but believing ones. The point of John is that "the believing ones have been born again". That's all.

The point is that you are saying that regeneration occurs after faith in the logical order. If that is true, then to be consistent, you must say that regeneration occurs after righteousness in the logical order.

That's not been my argument for 1 Jn 5:1. All John was noting was that those currently believing have been born again. Nothing about order.

Again, the grammar of 1 John 5:1 and 2:29 are identical so you must say the same thing about both passages. The only difference is that in 2:29 the word righteousness occurs and in 5:1 the word faith occurs.

Please check a lexicon. The present participle isn't "faith". It's about people who believe. Do you know what a participle is?

The concept of "cause" I am taking from the perfect passive tense of regeneration.

Well, the cause of regeneration is God Himself. What else do you see?

If you would prefer me to be more technically correct in the words I choose, then I would choose the word "result." The result of regeneration is faith.

But 1 Jn 5:1 doesn't say that. Nor does it suggest that. You are reading into the passage what you want to see.

The perfect is the tense where you have a past action that has results until the present. In both 1 John 2:29 and 5:1 the verb is perfect tense and the present tense participle is the result of the action of God in regeneration.

Uh, the "results into the present" isn't about faith or righteousness. It's about being born again. Once regenerated, always regenerated. You're trying to put cause of faith and righteousness onto regeneration.

Actually, our righteousness comes from the power of the Holy Spirit, not our regeneration. Again, what our regeneration does "cause" is that we become new creatures. But new creatures still sin, still rebel, etc.

There is a problem here. You are a person without any greek training and you are telling people here how to read greek who have greek training.

Yes, we certainly do have a problem here. It's you. I've NEVER ever told anyone HOW to read Greek. Where in the world do you get that? I only point out what my lexicons and Greek grammar texts SAY. Seems you are very confused.

I am familiar with Mounce, the person you quote. I am not sure that I have that source. Sometime I might look up what Mounce says in the books from him I have.

If you're so familiar with Mounce, why did you make your snide comment?

No, believers are not unrighteous.

I didn't say that. I said that believers can be unrighteous. Do you think sin can be called "righteous".

What you mean is that believers still commit personal sin.

Yes. And when they do sin, is that being righteous or unrighteous?

The point of the text is that righteousness is the result of regeneration. Are you denying that righteousness is the result of regeneration?

Yes, I am. Righteousness is the result of the power of the Holy Spirit when the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), walking by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16), and NOT grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30), or quenching the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

If regeneration was the cause or source of righteousness, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit's indwelling and power. I think you need to re-think your view.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I will premises this post by stating that when I say regeneration I believe it is the same thing as being born again. Being born is not the same thing as faith. They are two separate things and in order to have faith to be able to be saved you must be born again. This is clearly seen in Jesus' teachings in John 3:1-15.

More textual proof from scripture that this is the case can be found in Romans 5:1-2: Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Clearly Paul is primarily talking about faith in this passage as well as the verses that follow but in verse 2 we clearly see a separate action occurring which is bringing about faith. Paul specifically states here that "through him we have also obtained access by faith into his grace..." The "through him" here is a display of the regenerative power of God which is bringing about faith!

The verse does not say that through "myself," "ourselves," "me," "my power," "my will," my belief," or anything of the sort. It says THROUGH HIM we have also obtained access by faith into his grace! Halleluiah! [/COLOR]

That particular passage definitely rules out Palaginism, but I can see where the same passage could be used to defend synergism (which is not my goal here, but I am trying to help), the view that God and man cooperate in regeneration, such that it is not man willing by himself, but God convincing and persuading the will of man, the Arminian may insert or read prevenient grace into the passage, to say by the grace of God the man is cooperating by God enabling, man cooperating with grace by grace of enabling power of the Holy Spirit. If the verse said BY HIM, it would be more convincing in our favor, as it is, I think it's a verse where we have to do more explaining and pointing to context. I think it's a verse which points more to synergism, where we should confess the co-truth of both monergism and synergism.

I think the verses in support of total depravity, help prove the necessity for monergism. Also the verses throughout the Gospels where Jesus is talking about salvation and saying with man it is impossible, thus also pointing to the need for monergism, which is also logical, but also spiritually discerned.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I decided to do a little searching, and re-discovered a nice list of Scriptures in:

John Hendryx. Quotes on Monergistic Regeneration from Church History (Kindle). Monergism.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deut 30:6

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezek 36:27

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. No one believes unless God grants it]

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." 1 Thess 1:4-5

"...the Son gives life to whom he will." - John 5:21 "...Christ Jesus has made me his own" - Philippians 3:12

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Grace is not a reward for obedience; obedience is the result of grace. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." - 1 Corinthians 1:30

"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have GIVEN HIM ... I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have GIVEN ME, for they are yours." - John 17:2, 9

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27

"Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners" - 1 Timothy 1:12-17

A couple of unspecified verses from the list above are not so obvious (I wouldn't have included a couple of them personally), but most of them point to what should be the obvious truth, John 1:13 really squashes the notion of cooperation with God, plainly denying the will of man as part of the new birth. Ephesians 2:4-5 is a strong text to support both monergism and the Reformed ordo saltus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I decided to do a little searching, and re-discovered a nice list of Scriptures in:

John Hendryx. Quotes on Monergistic Regeneration from Church History (Kindle). Monergism.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deut 30:6

Says nothing about being circumcised of heart in order to believe. This verse speaks of regeneration all right. Once born again, the bleiever is then able to love God with all their heart and soul.

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezek 36:27

Same here.

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

Speaks of regeneration. Nothing about regeneration before faith. In fact, nothing about faith at all.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65

Again, the Holy Spirit is the agen of regeneration, no argument. But nothing here about regeneration required before one believes. Not even implied.

[All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit.

No argument. Once man believes from his heart (Rom 10:10), then God saves him. 1 Cor 1:21

No one believes unless God grants it

Phil 1:29. Nothing there about needing regeneration in order to believe.

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]

And John 14:6 says that no one comes to the Father except by through Christ. John was very clear throughout his gospel that eternal life is based on believing in Christ. And earlier in ch 6 Jesus told the unbelieving crowd to "work for food that endures to eternal life" (v.27). So they asked, "what must we DO to do the works God requires?" in v.28. Jesus answered, "The work of God is to believe in the One He has sent." (v.29) iow, the "work that God requires" (based on their question) and what they "must DO" is to believe in the Son.

That is the context before v.37, which you have taken out of context.

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16

The question is what depends on God? In context, from v.6 on, the subject is Abraham's children, and Paul makes clear he isn't speaking about physical Israel, but spiritual, which he elaborated on back in ch 4. So the "it" here is becoming Abraham's children, which is through faith (ch 4).

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13

I love these verses. v.12 indicates that the right to becoming a child of God is received by believing. And v.13 makes the point that regeneration is from God, not from man's will or physical relationship.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5

It is obvious that "seeing" and "entering" are synonymous here. Jesus was saying the same thing in 2 different ways. The primary meaning of "see" is literal vision. And one must be born again in order to enter the kingdom. No one enters the kingdom before they have been born again.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

OK, God does the regenerating (makes us alive spiritually). Then Paul equates being made alive with being saved in the phrase "by grace you have been saved". Then, in v.8 Paul repeats the same phrase except he adds "through faith". So, v.5 equates being made alive with being saved. And v.8 notes that we are saved through faith. This would argue logically that faith before regeneration, though I agree with hammster and others that they occur at exactly the same time.

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12

Not sure what you think this verse says that helps your theology. I believe it tells us that God gave mankind an intellect with which to understand his surroundings and to make decisions.

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." 1 Thess 1:4-5

The question is "chosen" them for what? The text does not specify. In 2 Thess 2:13 we know that they were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. iow, God chooses all who believe. No mystery there.

"...the Son gives life to whom he will." - John 5:21 "...Christ Jesus has made me his own" - Philippians 3:12

Yes, Christ gives eternal life to whomever He wills. And we know that He wills for only believers to have eternal life. In fact, throughout the gospel of John, He promises eternal life to whosoever believes in Him.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1

This verse doesn't help you. From the Greek and grammar, it says this: those presently believing have been born of God.

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

A great verse on the fact that God does the regenerating. But nothing here about regeneration necessary for faith. In fact, there is nothing here about believing at all.

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Yes, the gospel is very powerful. But nothing about regeneration preceding faith. In fact, nothing here about regeneration OR faith.

Grace is not a reward for obedience; obedience is the result of grace. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." - 1 Corinthians 1:30

This verse doesn't support your statement. Do you have a verse that does?

"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have GIVEN HIM ... I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have GIVEN ME, for they are yours." - John 17:2, 9

And we know from many other verses that eteranl life is ONLY for those who believe. And these 2 verses say nothing about regeneration preceding faith, or is necessary for faith.

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27

Nothing here about regeneration OR faith.

"Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners" - 1 Timothy 1:12-17

To be logical and consistent, Calvinists would have to admit that ONLY the elect are sinners, then. Does the verse limit salvation to any particular group of sinners? No. Paul never limited the scope of who Christ came to save.

A couple of unspecified verses from the list above are not so obvious (I wouldn't have included a couple of them personally), but most of them point to what should be the obvious truth, John 1:13 really squashes the notion of cooperation with God, plainly denying the will of man as part of the new birth. Ephesians 2:4-5 is a strong text to support both monergism and the Reformed ordo saltus.

There is in fact nothing obvious in any of these verses that supports the claim that regeneration precedes or is necessary for faith.

 

[AndOne]

I decided to do a little searching, and re-discovered a nice list of Scriptures in:

John Hendryx. Quotes on Monergistic Regeneration from Church History (Kindle). Monergism.

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deut 30:6

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezek 36:27

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. No one believes unless God grants it]

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." 1 Thess 1:4-5

"...the Son gives life to whom he will." - John 5:21 "...Christ Jesus has made me his own" - Philippians 3:12

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Grace is not a reward for obedience; obedience is the result of grace. "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." - 1 Corinthians 1:30

"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have GIVEN HIM ... I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have GIVEN ME, for they are yours." - John 17:2, 9

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27

"Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners" - 1 Timothy 1:12-17

A couple of unspecified verses from the list above are not so obvious (I wouldn't have included a couple of them personally), but most of them point to what should be the obvious truth, John 1:13 really squashes the notion of cooperation with God, plainly denying the will of man as part of the new birth. Ephesians 2:4-5 is a strong text to support both monergism and the Reformed ordo saltus.

Thanks for this. These verses clearly show that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thanks for this. These verses clearly show that regeneration precedes faith.

In post #33 I explained WHY none of them do. And you ignored it. And without anything to challenge or refute what I said. Calvinism still hasn't proven from Scripture the doctrines it holds to.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

In post #33 I explained WHY none of them do. And you ignored it. And without anything to challenge or refute what I said. Calvinism still hasn't proven from Scripture the doctrines it holds to.

In case you missed it, I prefaced the list with: "John Hendryx. Quotes on Monergistic Regeneration from Church History (Kindle). Monergism." meaning I did not compile the list personally. I further stated "A couple of unspecified verses from the list above are not so obvious (I wouldn't have included a couple of them personally), but most of them point to what should be the obvious truth." Most does not mean all, I wanted to present the list as is, to give credit where due, so that it's clear I did not spend hours researching, reading, and looking for verses, or that I can memorize lists of verses chapter and verse. Now then, I must say you have a strange idea of what an explanation is and is not. For example, in response to one of them you commented "Same here." which is no explanation at all. But you claim to have explained why none do, when in fact you did not. Disagreement fine, but you should tame your assertions down, and learn to respond with less rhetoric and more substance, and most importantly stop ignoring parts of Scripture and deal with them. For example, to "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13 you responded; "I love these verses. v.12 indicates that the right to becoming a child of God is received by believing. And v.13 makes the point that regeneration is from God, not from man's will or physical relationship." totally ignoring and dealing with "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN", here let me make it bigger, maybe the font is too small: "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN" oh maybe it needs some color for emphasis: "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN"

So then, where is the will of man in regeneration? It does not even factor in. Interpreted correctly, if you understood Greek sentence structure, you would understand that contrary to your assumption that because "13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." is at the end of the sentence it is therefore the chronological order, betrays that fact we read "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN" You are in fact bringing another assumption, that faith comes before regeneration and therefore THE WILL OF MAN before NOT THE WILL OF MAN. Now who is not making sense? It is your theology. If THE WILL OF MAN comes before regeneration, there is no reason it should not likewise came after faith in your view.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In case you missed it, I prefaced the list with: "John Hendryx. Quotes on Monergistic Regeneration from Church History (Kindle). Monergism." meaning I did not compile the list personally.

No, sir, I did not miss that.

I further stated "A couple of unspecified verses from the list above are not so obvious (I wouldn't have included a couple of them personally), but most of them point to what should be the obvious truth."

I did not miss that either.

Most does not mean all, I wanted to present the list as is, to give credit where due, so that it's clear I did not spend hours researching, reading, and looking for verses, or that I can memorize lists of verses chapter and verse. Now then, I must say you have a strange idea of what an explanation is and is not.

Strange? I simply pointed out the obvious; none of those verses actually SAYS what you claim; that regeneration precedes faith.

For example, in response to one of them you commented "Same here." which is no explanation at all.

Well, if you were reading all the post, to say "same here" is equivalent to "ditto" as in what I just said for the previous verse or passage. Sorry I wasn't clear.

But you claim to have explained why none do, when in fact you did not.

My comments were an explanation. You are free to disagree with my explanation. But the fact remains that none of the verses SAYS that regeneration precedes faith. In fact, a number of them didn't even mention either regeneration or faith.

Disagreement fine, but you should tame your assertions down, and learn to respond with less rhetoric and more substance, and most importantly stop ignoring parts of Scripture and deal with them.

Could you direct me to what you saw as "rhetoric", please? I find that word to be strange, given what I did post.

For example, to "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13 you responded; "I love these verses. v.12 indicates that the right to becoming a child of God is received by believing. And v.13 makes the point that regeneration is from God, not from man's will or physical relationship."

That was an explanation of what the verses say. And there was no rhetoric in that.

totally ignoring and dealing with "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN", here let me make it bigger, maybe the font is too small: "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN" oh maybe it needs some color for emphasis: "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN"

Computer shouting is offensive to many people, and considered rude. I can read even smaller type than the default size, so making your words bigger does nothing helpful.

But to address your claim, this is what I said regarding v.13: And v.13 makes the point that regeneration is from God, not from man's will or physical relationship."

So, your charge of "totally ignoring and dealing with" v13 is fallacious.

So then, where is the will of man in regeneration? It does not even factor in. Interpreted correctly, if you understood Greek sentence structure, you would understand that contrary to your assumption that because "13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." is at the end of the sentence it is therefore the chronological order, betrays that fact we read "NOT OF BLOOD NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN" You are in fact bringing another assumption, that faith comes before regeneration and therefore THE WILL OF MAN before NOT THE WILL OF MAN.

I said nothing of the sort. Here is all that I posted regarding Jn 1:12-13:

I love these verses. v.12 indicates that the right to becoming a child of God is received by believing. And v.13 makes the point that regeneration is from God, not from man's will or physical relationship.

Your charge is astounding.

Now who is not making sense? It is your theology. If THE WILL OF MAN comes before regeneration, there is no reason it should not likewise came after faith in your view.

Since I never made any comment about order of faith and regeneration in Jn 1:12-13, it is clear that you are not making any sense at all.

 

[AndOne]

In post #33 I explained WHY none of them do. And you ignored it. And without anything to challenge or refute what I said. Calvinism still hasn't proven from Scripture the doctrines it holds to.

I would have had to have read them in order to ignore them...

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would have had to have read them in order to ignore them...

In post #33, I said this:

In post #33 I explained WHY none of them do. And you ignored it. And without anything to challenge or refute what I said. Calvinism still hasn't proven from Scripture the doctrines it holds to.

That's fine if you aren't interested in an explanation. But it's not necesssary to announce an intention of ignoring something.

 

[AndOne]

In post #33, I said this:

That's fine if you aren't interested in an explanation. But it's not necesssary to announce an intention of ignoring something.

The past few days I never even addressed you in this thread. You addressed me and I am under no obligation to read your explanations if I don't desire. I didn't and I don't. I did read AW's post however and I affirm it. Thank you.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So I decided to revise and expand the list above and include an argument...

Verses pertaining directly to Regeneration​

"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deuteronomy 30:6

“Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’ “And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. “Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, “that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. - Ezekiel 11:17-20

“For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.. - Ezekiel 36:27

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12 [also see Matt 5:8, Matt 13:13-23, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, Luke 10:24, John 5:37, John 12:40]

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3:3-8

"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. No one believes unless God grants it]

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. - 1 Corinthians 2:12

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior," - Titus 3:5-6

A few indirectly related verses​

"...it [election] depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16

At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." - 1 Thess 1:4-5

"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Then He [Jesus] spoke a parable to them: “No one puts a piece from a new garment on an old one; otherwise the new makes a tear, and also the piece that was taken out of the new does not match the old. “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskins will be ruined. “But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved. “And no one, having drunk old wine, immediately desires new; for he says, ‘The old is better.’ - Luke 5:36-39 [Matt 9:16-17, Mark 2:21-22] (such is the desires of dead faith of the unregenerate non-Christian, which cannot come before regeneration, because it wills not)

Finally an argument from perhaps a not so obvious Scripture:​

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. - 1 Corinthians 12:3

According to this verse, assuming the born again believer alone is sealed by the Holy Spirit, regeneration (though not stated using the terminology) is required to (honestly, sincerely from the heart with conviction) say that Jesus is Lord. Often the non-Christian is bagered to confess, to accept, to trust Jesus as Lord, and if faith comes before regeneration, how is it they can have faith that Jesus is Lord, but cannot say it? How is it they can confess, accept, and trust Jesus as Lord, except that they have FIRST been regenerated and sealed by the Holy Spirit? How can the unregenerate without eyes to see and ears to hear, say in faith that Jesus is Lord?

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. - 1 Corinthians 2:11

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi AW,

Yes, these verses you posted do speak of regeneration. But none of them address any order between regeneration and faith. In fact, only 1 of the 41 verses even mentions believing, which is Jn 1:12, and in that verse there is no order presented at all. It tells us that those who believe in Christ receive the right to become the children of God. And v.13 tells us that regeneration is God's perogative alone, not man's choice.

btw, your posts include this statement:

"God chooses us, not because He foresees that we would choose Him, or that we would believe, but for the very opposite reason. He chooses us just because He foresees that we would neither choose Him nor believe of ourselves at all. Election proceeds not upon foreseen faith in us, but upon foreseen unbelief." - HORATIUS BONAR

According to this statement, God ultimately chooses who will believe then, as I have been pointing out. But where are the verses that tell us this?

Rather, 1 Cor 1:21 tells us that God is well pleased to save those who believe. From that, it is clear that He chooses to save those who believe.

Why do Calvinists believe what isn't stated in Scripture?