Verses that Prove Calvinism to be a false Dogma

[EmSw]

God may well have predestined a draught for Egypt. But that doesn’t mean that He necessarily sent fire from Heaven specifically to warm the Middle East up a bit. He likely did it by simply “allowing” natural weather patterns to take their course at that time in history.

I put “allowing” in parenthesis because God’s simply standing by and watching things happen in His creation is not the Biblical picture of His omnipresent and providential controlling relationship with His creation – even if that is the picture painted for us by many non-Reformed teachers here and elsewhere.

Wow Marvin, surely you did not say this. Since God isn't just standing by and watching, He has an active hand in 'sending fire' from Heaven. He must necessarily have an active hand in bringing man to sin also. He must also have an active hand in making man sin. Will you say God has a hand in your sinning? I believe you said God had a hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers. You must necessarily believe God had a hand in the destruction of lives in WW1, WW2, Korean, and Vietnam wars. Here are the pictures you paint.

 

[EmSw]

Maybe it thinks you are a Calvinst. You know, God makes all the choices for you.

I'm not having that problem.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Wow Marvin, surely you did not say this. Since God isn't just standing by and watching, He has an active hand in 'sending fire' from Heaven. He must necessarily have an active hand in bringing man to sin also. He must also have an active hand in making man sin. Will you say God has a hand in your sinning? I believe you said God had a hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers. You must necessarily believe God had a hand in the destruction of lives in WW1, WW2, Korean, and Vietnam wars. Here are the pictures you paint.

I don't remember ever saying that God had a hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers nor do you know what I believe about God having a hand in WWI, WW2, the Korean War, or Vietnam.

But, since you brought it up, you might as well not have to guess about what I believe. Let me fill you in on that.

Of course God had a hand in all of those things. How can you ask such a thing if you are a worshiper of the God of the scriptures?

Actually, just to be more precise and anthropomorphically and anatomically correct, God had a "WORD" in it.

I read the last post before this one and wasn't going to even bother to comment on either post.

But I just can't help but point out to everyone here once more just how slow you seem to be sometimes.

You seem to be trying to be quick and witty in your posts. But some of the things you say and the questions you ask concerning Reformed theology actually proves you to be either not hitting on all cylinders or just plain purposefully obtuse.

If you have any really legitimate inquiries about my beliefs you are very welcome to ask. Just make sure that it isn't something you've been corrected concerning a few times before because I'm likely not to answer.

I can't imagine that there's much left to ask about though.

You just seem to be misrepresenting my beliefs and the beliefs of Calvinism purposefully now. But then - we've talked about these things quite a few times now haven't we?

 

[EmSw]

I don't remember ever saying that God had a hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers nor do you know what I believe about God having a hand in WWI, WW2, the Korean War, or Vietnam.

But, since you brought it up, you might as well not have to guess about what I believe. Let me fill you in on that.

Of course God had a hand in all of those things. How can you ask such a thing if you are a worshiper of the God of the scriptures?

Enough said!

And since I don't know what you believe, I'll ask you, did God have a hand in planning and carrying out all those atrocities?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Enough said!

And since I don't know what you believe, I'll ask you, did God have a hand in planning and carrying out all those atrocities?

If, as you seem to be getting at, you are talking about God's planning the atrocities themselves the answer is no.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about planning and carrying out the ultimate result of those acts of atrocity the answer is yes.

God only decrees what is good.

But God often uses the evil choices of men and angels to bring those decrees to past.

Are you familiar with the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?

Why does it seem that we've gone over this material several times in the past?

Just in case you are actually as slow on the uptake as you seem to be ---- God's predestination of all that happens in history does not entail His "planning" all that happens in history.

It has to do with what events He will allow to happen in the creation.

That's not to say that He doesn't involve Himself in history to bring about certain conclusions - because obviously He does.

But - God's predestination of all that happens in His creation is not in conflict with the "free" choices that men make.

Rather they work hand in hand to accomplish His purposes.

I pray that you'll get it this time around. But somehow I doubt it.

 

[nobdysfool]

Wow Marvin, surely you did not say this. Since God isn't just standing by and watching, He has an active hand in 'sending fire' from Heaven. He must necessarily have an active hand in bringing man to sin also. He must also have an active hand in making man sin. Will you say God has a hand in your sinning? I believe you said God had a hand in the destruction of the Twin Towers. You must necessarily believe God had a hand in the destruction of lives in WW1, WW2, Korean, and Vietnam wars. Here are the pictures you paint.

I don't understand why you feel the need to actively try to provoke others in the things you say. This post is nothing but provocation, intentionally trying to goad someone, in this case Marvin, into posting an angry reply. Is that your intent? In what way does that promote harmony among the brethren? Or is the reason you do this because it's easier to take pot shots and post insulting remarks toward other Christians than to take the fight to Satan, who is the enemy of us all?

Satan is the one we should be fighting, not each other. And before you say it, no, Calvinists are not Satanic, or following Satan, or doing his work. Disabuse yourself of that thought right now. We may not agree theologically, but we still serve the same God, and correct theology is not a requirement for Salvation. The Body of Christ has many members, and we do not all have the same function, or the same viewpoint, nor do we have to. We each have our place, and our role in the Body of Christ, and they are not all the same. And speaking of harmony, there is none if all of the singers sing the same note.

You're so sure that Calvinism is wrong, but have you ever considered that it plays a role in God's Plan? That it is a necessary part of the functioning of the Body of Christ? Whether you think so or not?

.

 

[EmSw]

I don't understand why you feel the need to actively try to provoke others in the things you say. This post is nothing but provocation, intentionally trying to goad someone, in this case Marvin, into posting an angry reply. Is that your intent? In what way does that promote harmony among the brethren? Or is the reason you do this because it's easier to take pot shots and post insulting remarks toward other Christians than to take the fight to Satan, who is the enemy of us all?

Satan is the one we should be fighting, not each other. And before you say it, no, Calvinists are not Satanic, or following Satan, or doing his work. Disabuse yourself of that thought right now. We may not agree theologically, but we still serve the same God, and correct theology is not a requirement for Salvation. The Body of Christ has many members, and we do not all have the same function, or the same viewpoint, nor do we have to. We each have our place, and our role in the Body of Christ, and they are not all the same. And speaking of harmony, there is none if all of the singers sing the same note.

You're so sure that Calvinism is wrong, but have you ever considered that it plays a role in God's Plan? That it is a necessary part of the functioning of the Body of Christ? Whether you think so or not?.

Why not just answer the questions, instead of giving a critique of everyone's motives?

 

[EmSw]

If, as you seem to be getting at, you are talking about God's planning the atrocities themselves the answer is no.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about planning and carrying out the ultimate result of those acts of atrocity the answer is yes.

So God planned and carried out the ultimate result of the misery, despair, torture, and death of millions of people. How do you call this good? The means by which He planned and carried out these atrocities doesn't seem to matter to you, as long as God gets the results He planned, correct?

What difference does it make, if you say God planned the atrocities themselves, or planned the ultimate result of the atrocities? It all goes back to God. Millions of innocent people suffered and died because of God's plan.

As an investigator, I am trying to see who is guilty of all these atrocities, but the closer I inspect your report, I see God's fingerprints all over the place. Should I look for another inspector, or should I believe your report?

God only decrees what is good.

What is good about the horrible acts of Dr. Josef Mengele? Please tell us the good you see. Here is just a bit about this monster God used to carry out His ultimate plan.

At death camps like Auschwitz children did not fare well: they were generally killed upon arrival. Children born in the camps were generally killed on the spot, especially if the child was Jewish.

So called camp doctors, especially the notorious Josef Mengele, would torture Jewish children, Gypsy children and many others. "Patients" were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death, and exposed to various other traumas. (http://www.auschwitz.dk/Mengele.htm)

Now Marvin, how do you reconcile the above statement with the words of Jesus?

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

I am not seeing the God you are trying to present. I see a loving God who desired the little children to come unto Him. You see a God who plans and carries out the ultimate result of their tortures, sufferings, and horrendous deaths. It displeased Jesus when His disciples forbid little children to come unto Him. Yet you think it pleased Him to plan and carry out the ultimate results such as these unspeakable crimes.

And then we get the following remark from you -

But God often uses the evil choices of men and angels to bring those decrees to past.

Yes, I can see God using the evil choices of men, but to carry out His DECREES of horror, disgusting behavior, sickening filth, and putrid experiments should be a stench to our nostrils. Yet, we have some here will cheer, exult, and breathe in such hellish decrees.

I advice you, or anyone else, to read this Marvin, for it shows the ultimate results of God's decrees that you so happily promote -

http://www.auschwitz.dk/Mengele.htm

But - God's predestination of all that happens in His creation is not in conflict with the "free" choices that men make.

Rather they work hand in hand to accomplish His purposes.

I pray that you'll get it this time around. But somehow I doubt it.

Yes, I see your ungodly view of God predestining ALL that happens. You say they work hand-in-hand to accomplish His purposes. We all see His 'purposes' with the one million plus children by the hands of the 'Angel of Death'.

I'm sorry Marvin, I will never get it! And please don't pray that I get it this time around, for your prayers will be as useless as hope for the one million plus children savagely murdered by Mengele.

 

[Patmos]

I've got a few more thoughts on predestination that would be for both you and "brotherjerry". Hopefully he's still around and lurking. He's got a good attitude about discussing such things just as you do - even though you both disagree with the notion.

I'll get to it when I find the time. Maybe this evening - but more likely next day. These subjects takes a lot of time and thought to present lest they be misunderstood.

That's the problem with a discussion format like this. We try to make our deep points pithy when they really need a virtual dissertation to do them justice.

How about start a new thread on this ? It is not so much I disagree with the notion, rather I don't get it. E.g R C Sproul in his book "Chosen by God" states that even if one electron did it's own thing then God would not be omnipotent.

 

[supersoldier71]

I don't understand why you feel the need to actively try to provoke others in the things you say. This post is nothing but provocation, intentionally trying to goad someone, in this case Marvin, into posting an angry reply. Is that your intent? In what way does that promote harmony among the brethren? Or is the reason you do this because it's easier to take pot shots and post insulting remarks toward other Christians than to take the fight to Satan, who is the enemy of us all?

Satan is the one we should be fighting, not each other. And before you say it, no, Calvinists are not Satanic, or following Satan, or doing his work. Disabuse yourself of that thought right now. We may not agree theologically, but we still serve the same God, and correct theology is not a requirement for Salvation. The Body of Christ has many members, and we do not all have the same function, or the same viewpoint, nor do we have to. We each have our place, and our role in the Body of Christ, and they are not all the same. And speaking of harmony, there is none if all of the singers sing the same note.

You're so sure that Calvinism is wrong, but have you ever considered that it plays a role in God's Plan? That it is a necessary part of the functioning of the Body of Christ? Whether you think so or not?

.

Don't sweat it.

@EmSw can't possibly be as dense as he tries to portray.

Socratic method maybe?

I dunno, either way, he's just about the argument, not the understanding.

Again, don't sweat it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How about start a new thread on this ? It is not so much I disagree with the notion, rather I don't get it. E.g R C Sproul in his book "Chosen by God" states that even if one electron did it's own thing then God would not be omnipotent.

Actually, every electron does its own thing? Why? Because God created electrons to do what they do. We all know the natural laws (scientific laws). But all those laws were created by God.

And God created humans to act freely. Not programmed to do what He wants them to do. If that were true, and given the state of the world since nearly the beginning, God would seem to be rather horrible.

We all know that God is perfect, holy and righteous. He cannot cause another to sin. Period. He does create opportunities that allow sin to occur. Which is totally different than causing sin to occur.

 

[EmSw]

Don't sweat it.

@EmSw can't possibly be as dense as he tries to portray.

Socratic method maybe?

I dunno, either way, he's just about the argument, not the understanding.

Again, don't sweat it.

So SS, do you believe God decreed the filthy acts of Nazism, and the horrible experiments on, and devilish deaths of the children?

 

[EmSw]

You're so sure that Calvinism is wrong, but have you ever considered that it plays a role in God's Plan? That it is a necessary part of the functioning of the Body of Christ? Whether you think so or not?

So, if God's plan is to for the people of the Holocaust to experience all those ungodly atrocities against them, are you saying Calvinism played a role in that plan?

Did Calvinism play a role in God's plan to bring about the evil acts of the Twin Towers?

Is Calvinism involved in God's plan for the rape of women and spousal abuse?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the ungodly deeds of the wicked a necessary part of the functions of His body?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the body of Christ playing a necessary part of the death of Christ?

You know not of what you speak?

 

[Marvin Knox]

Actually, every electron does its own thing? Why? Because God created electrons to do what they do. We all know the natural laws (scientific laws). But all those laws were created by God.

And God created humans to act freely. Not programmed to do what He wants them to do. If that were true, and given the state of the world since nearly the beginning, God would seem to be rather horrible.

We all know that God is perfect, holy and righteous. He cannot cause another to sin. Period. He does create opportunities that allow sin to occur. Which is totally different than causing sin to occur.

I totally agree. I always have agreed with these sentiments.

I never have believed or taught otherwise.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So, if God's plan is to for the people of the Holocaust to experience all those ungodly atrocities against them, are you saying Calvinism played a role in that plan?

Did Calvinism play a role in God's plan to bring about the evil acts of the Twin Towers?

Is Calvinism involved in God's plan for the rape of women and spousal abuse?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the ungodly deeds of the wicked a necessary part of the functions of His body?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the body of Christ playing a necessary part of the death of Christ?

You know not of what you speak?

This post looks like your trolley just jumped the tracks again.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So God planned and carried out the ultimate result of the misery, despair, torture, and death of millions of people. How do you call this good? The means by which He planned and carried out these atrocities doesn't seem to matter to you, as long as God gets the results He planned, correct?

What difference does it make, if you say God planned the atrocities themselves, or planned the ultimate result of the atrocities? It all goes back to God. Millions of innocent people suffered and died because of God's plan.

As an investigator, I am trying to see who is guilty of all these atrocities, but the closer I inspect your report, I see God's fingerprints all over the place. Should I look for another inspector, or should I believe your report?

What is good about the horrible acts of Dr. Josef Mengele? Please tell us the good you see. Here is just a bit about this monster God used to carry out His ultimate plan.

At death camps like Auschwitz children did not fare well: they were generally killed upon arrival. Children born in the camps were generally killed on the spot, especially if the child was Jewish.

So called camp doctors, especially the notorious Josef Mengele, would torture Jewish children, Gypsy children and many others. "Patients" were put into pressure chambers, tested with drugs, castrated, frozen to death, and exposed to various other traumas. (http://www.auschwitz.dk/Mengele.htm)

Now Marvin, how do you reconcile the above statement with the words of Jesus?

Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them, suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

I am not seeing the God you are trying to present. I see a loving God who desired the little children to come unto Him. You see a God who plans and carries out the ultimate result of their tortures, sufferings, and horrendous deaths. It displeased Jesus when His disciples forbid little children to come unto Him. Yet you think it pleased Him to plan and carry out the ultimate results such as these unspeakable crimes.

And then we get the following remark from you -

Yes, I can see God using the evil choices of men, but to carry out His DECREES of horror, disgusting behavior, sickening filth, and putrid experiments should be a stench to our nostrils. Yet, we have some here will cheer, exult, and breathe in such hellish decrees.

I advice you, or anyone else, to read this Marvin, for it shows the ultimate results of God's decrees that you so happily promote -
http://www.auschwitz.dk/Mengele.htm

Yes, I see your ungodly view of God predestining ALL that happens. You say they work hand-in-hand to accomplish His purposes. We all see His 'purposes' with the one million plus children by the hands of the 'Angel of Death'.

I'm sorry Marvin, I will never get it! And please don't pray that I get it this time around, for your prayers will be as useless as hope for the one million plus children savagely murdered by Mengele.

WOW!

Mengele was sure a bad dude.

The evil acts done by Satan through him were a lot worse than the evil acts of Joseph's brothers. They were even quite a bit worse than the Chaldeans who afflicted Job's family. They were even worse it seems than those atrocities committed by the Assyrians from another pretty low time in the history of sin.

But then again Mengele's acts were somewhat less atrocious than those of the ones who crucified the Lord of Glory weren't they?

Those Biblical instances were predestined to take place to fulfill the ultimate plan of God.

You can read about those individual acts in your Bible.

It's strange how you people always insist on jumping to examples from the likes of Auschwitz, Cambodia, or the Twin Towers to use to argue this issue.

You just don't seem to be able to keep yourself from going beyond the examples we have been given in the scriptures. Maybe if God had put off writing the Bible until the 21st Century He could have given you your answers from these particular examples instead of the ones He wrote to us about,

But as for me - I'm content with the explanations of examples we have from scripture. But that’s just how I roll.

So --- Joseph Mengele is your ultimate angel of death? I'm going to go with a guy name Lucifer myself. But - to each his own.

Entire books have been written exploring the problem of evil in the world and you expect me to present a dissertation on it in a single post to you?

Well the truth is that I don’t know every nuance of the things that will be accomplished by God’s ordaining that Satan be allowed to do the terrible things he’s done over the millennia. The Twin Towers,.Aushwitzand the activities of Joseph Mengele are but a few of the nasty things that the Satan has done over the years.

Every negative thing you could name in history is but one individual part of what God has decreed can be done by Satan – all to a good end.

We know what the final and good result is of God’s plan to allow Lucifer to flourish. Read your Bible to find out for yourself.

If you want a few more merely human slants on the purpose of evil in the plans of God – like I said -- there are many books on the subject by some pretty good Bible scholars.. Just don’t expect that I will write one for you here..

I’m pretty much OK with the overall result that God has explain to me in the Word of God concerning how Lucifer’s activities can be justified by God. If you want a detailed breakdown of how each and every individual act of the devil plays into the scheme of things,- maybe God will give you a special dispensation and take you up to Heaven to see even more than the book of Revelation has revealed to us.

While you’re talking to Him about Mengele’s activities – ask Him about those 18 guys that were killed by the tower that fell on them in Siloam. Don’t forget, while you’re filling in the blanks, to ask the Lord to give you the exact skinny on how Pilate’s mixing the blood of those Galileans with the their sacrifices plays into the scheme of things exactly. Tell Him aren’t satisfied with generalities – you want detailed breakdowns of how each situation can be justified.

Tell Him that if He really did decree that His good decrees be bought to past through the sinful actions of men – you’ll think of Him as a monster and not worship Him anymore.

By the way it boggles my mind why people find it more comforting to think that the works of Satan were and are a kind of afterthought sprung on God in history that He is simply reacting to - than to think that God planned for these things to take place from before He sent forth His Word to accomplish all that He intended to be accomplished.

Somehow people think it gets God off the hook (as if He needed helping out) if they say that God allowed Mengele's atrocities for no particular purpose when He could have easily prevented them - rather then that they were meant to be allowed because they played a specific part in God's perfect plan for the ages.

Either way the problem of evil remains. It's just that non-sovereignty types are whistling though the graveyard while sovereignty types (like myself) are praising God for His unfathomable wisdom.

I believe that the scriptures portray a God who was well on top of things from before the foundation of the world.

One more time for the record --- all that God decrees is good and tempered by His amazing wisdom. He has determined that those good decrees by brought to past in part through the freely chosen sins of men and angels.

The Westminster Confession of Faith said it very succinctly. I know what a fan you are of the WCF.

“God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”.

 

[nobdysfool]

So, if God's plan is to for the people of the Holocaust to experience all those ungodly atrocities against them, are you saying Calvinism played a role in that plan?

Did Calvinism play a role in God's plan to bring about the evil acts of the Twin Towers?

Is Calvinism involved in God's plan for the rape of women and spousal abuse?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the ungodly deeds of the wicked a necessary part of the functions of His body?

Is playing a role in God's plan involve the body of Christ playing a necessary part of the death of Christ?

You know not of what you speak?

You need to calm down and take some deep breaths, because you are getting awfully worked up about something that you, yourself, created, and are now trying to blame on Reformed Believers as though we never thought of those things. You go for the emotional appeal, because you can't find any other way to oppose.

I am not going to waste my time trying to answer for things i do not believe, have not taught, and recognize as nothing more than emotional garbage. You have completely misunderstood what was said, and ran to an extreme that is, as Marvin said, your trolley leaving the tracks.

 

[nobdysfool]

and, just for completeness, it was said that these evil acts killed millions of "innocent" people. I think that is part of the problem of why you can't see what Marvin is saying.

No one is innocent. Every human being who has lived, is living, or will live, is destined for hell, because they are sinners. They have offended a Holy God with their sins, and deserve hell for those sins. I don't think you believe that, EM. Every one of us here in this forum deserves Hell for what we have done, the sins we have committed, but in our cases, God intervened, and brought us unto Himself, not by our own "wise decisions", but by His Merciful Grace. We didn't deserve it, but God was Gracious unto us for reasons only He knows.

You entire argument collapses right there, because the outrage you express is based on a falsehood.

 

[EmSw]

WOW!

Mengele was sure a bad dude.

The evil acts done by Satan through him were a lot worse than the evil acts of Joseph's brothers. They were even quite a bit worse than the Chaldeans who afflicted Job's family. They were even worse it seems than those atrocities committed by the Assyrians from another pretty low time in the history of sin.

But then again Mengele's acts were somewhat less atrocious than those of the ones who crucified the Lord of Glory weren't they?

Those Biblical instances were predestined to take place to fulfill the ultimate plan of God.

You can read about those individual acts in your Bible.

It's strange how you people always insist on jumping to examples from the likes of Auschwitz, Cambodia, or the Twin Towers to use to argue this issue.

You just don't seem to be able to keep yourself from going beyond the examples we have been given in the scriptures. Maybe if God had put off writing the Bible until the 21st Century He could have given you your answers from these particular examples instead of the ones He wrote to us about,

But as for me - I'm content with the explanations of examples we have from scripture. But that’s just how I roll.

So --- Joseph Mengele is your ultimate angel of death? I'm going to go with a guy name Lucifer myself. But - to each his own.

Entire books have been written exploring the problem of evil in the world and you expect me to present a dissertation on it in a single post to you?

Well the truth is that I don’t know every nuance of the things that will be accomplished by God’s ordaining that Satan be allowed to do the terrible things he’s done over the millennia. The Twin Towers,.Aushwitzand the activities of Joseph Mengele are but a few of the nasty things that the Satan has done over the years.

Every negative thing you could name in history is but one individual part of what God has decreed can be done by Satan – all to a good end.

We know what the final and good result is of God’s plan to allow Lucifer to flourish. Read your Bible to find out for yourself.

If you want a few more merely human slants on the purpose of evil in the plans of God – like I said -- there are many books on the subject by some pretty good Bible scholars.. Just don’t expect that I will write one for you here..

I’m pretty much OK with the overall result that God has explain to me in the Word of God concerning how Lucifer’s activities can be justified by God. If you want a detailed breakdown of how each and every individual act of the devil plays into the scheme of things,- maybe God will give you a special dispensation and take you up to Heaven to see even more than the book of Revelation has revealed to us.

While you’re talking to Him about Mengele’s activities – ask Him about those 18 guys that were killed by the tower that fell on them in Siloam. Don’t forget, while you’re filling in the blanks, to ask the Lord to give you the exact skinny on how Pilate’s mixing the blood of those Galileans with the their sacrifices plays into the scheme of things exactly. Tell Him aren’t satisfied with generalities – you want detailed breakdowns of how each situation can be justified.

Tell Him that if He really did decree that His good decrees be bought to past through the sinful actions of men – you’ll think of Him as a monster and not worship Him anymore.

By the way it boggles my mind why people find it more comforting to think that the works of Satan were and are a kind of afterthought sprung on God in history that He is simply reacting to - than to think that God planned for these things to take place from before He sent forth His Word to accomplish all that He intended to be accomplished.

Somehow people think it gets God off the hook (as if He needed helping out) if they say that God allowed Mengele's atrocities for no particular purpose when He could have easily prevented them - rather then that they were meant to be allowed because they played a specific part in God's perfect plan for the ages.

Either way the problem of evil remains. It's just that non-sovereignty types are whistling though the graveyard while sovereignty types (like myself) are praising God for His unfathomable wisdom.

I believe that the scriptures portray a God who was well on top of things from before the foundation of the world.

One more time for the record --- all that God decrees is good and tempered by His amazing wisdom. He has determined that those good decrees by brought to past in part through the freely chosen sins of men and angels.

The Westminster Confession of Faith said it very succinctly. I know what a fan you are of the WCF.

“God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”.

I have put forth the dark side of your beliefs, yet they are a sweet smell in your nostrils.

I will ask you again, so God planned and carried out the ultimate result of the misery, despair, torture, and death of millions of people, including children. How do you say this is good? Did you see the pictures of the maimed, hungry, and humiliated children Mengele butchered? Did that touch your heart with compassion, or did you think they got what was coming from God's predestined plan? Is your heart as cold as the God you portray?

Again, your quote from the WCF is a farce. No one even remotely knows what was in God's heart from all eternity. But the Calvinists know, they are a blessed lot. They can speak for God, for they have been special knowledge reserved only for them.

Which statement below do you put as primary? One is the 'secret' will of God, while the other is His revealed will. And no Marvin, they do not complement each other; they are in direct opposition.

“God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

 

[EmSw]

and, just for completeness, it was said that these evil acts killed millions of "innocent" people. I think that is part of the problem of why you can't see what Marvin is saying.

No one is innocent. Every human being who has lived, is living, or will live, is destined for hell, because they are sinners. They have offended a Holy God with their sins, and deserve hell for those sins. I don't think you believe that, EM. Every one of us here in this forum deserves Hell for what we have done, the sins we have committed, but in our cases, God intervened, and brought us unto Himself, not by our own "wise decisions", but by His Merciful Grace. We didn't deserve it, but God was Gracious unto us for reasons only He knows.

You entire argument collapses right there, because the outrage you express is based on a falsehood.

Your knowledge of history and God's word is lacking.

Deuteronomy 27:25
Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Psalm 10:8
He sitteth in the lurking places of the villages: in the secret places doth he murder the innocent: his eyes are privily set against the poor.

Psalm 106:38
And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

Proverbs 6:17
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Jeremiah 19:4
Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

Jeremiah 26:15
But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the Lord hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.

So you say no one is innocent. We see many instances of the innocent in God's word. Yet, you choose to close your eyes to the word of God. God hates the shedding of innocent blood, it's even an abomination to Him. However, you have God decreeing such a thing.

Is man deserving of hell, or physical torture at the hands of a mad, evil doctor? You know not what you are saying? If you say you are not worthy, not good, do not deserve God's mercy, may I suggest you submit yourself to the torture of a mad, evil doctor. I'm sure this will appease God for your evil. If the physical torture of a mad, evil doctor is deserving for sinners, then Jesus did not pay that price, and you are yet in your sins.