Venerate

livingword26 · Jun 21, 2007

CathNancy said:
Genesis Chapter 3:15
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

Who is the woman that God is referring to when He says that He will put enmity between Satan and the woman? It can't be Eve, because she sinned, there can be no enmity between Satan and Eve.

Peace,
Nancy

No it was Eve. Read it. God was talking to Eve. Also, if anyone has sinned then there can be no enmity between them and Satan? Every member of the Body of Christ is at enmity with Satan, and besides Mary was not sin free.

Rom 3:23
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

PaladinValer · Jun 21, 2007

livingword26 said:
Actually there is only one exception,

Heb 4:15
(15) For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That isn't logical proof. Sorry.

livingword26 said:
Rom 3:23
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I asked for a specific quote of St. Mary sinning. Please provide.

livingword26 said:
Bump

1Ti 2:5
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ever prayed for someone? That's mediation and intercession.

Look up the words.

Your interpretation is therefore inaccurate.

I have many times on this thread something doesn't mean what I believe it does, but with no explanation of what it means. Care to enlighten me on what a Co-redeemer is?

Why don't you go to OBOB and ask them?!

livingword26 · Jun 21, 2007

Heb 4:15
(15) For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

PaladinValer said:
That isn't logical proof. Sorry.

A scripture that says He was without sin is not "logical proof"? If you don't believe the bible then there is nothing I can say to convince you.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Rom 3:23
(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I asked for a specific quote of St. Mary sinning. Please provide.

I don't know what to say. Read the verse. All have sinned, except God of course.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ti 2:5
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ever prayed for someone? That's mediation and intercession.

Look up the words.

Your interpretation is therefore inaccurate.

I didn't interperet anything. I just posted a verse that said Jesus is our only mediator.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why don't you go to OBOB and ask them?!

Because you are the one that says I have it wrong without bothering to explain what you mean.

PaladinValer · Jun 21, 2007

livingword26 said:
A scripture that says He was without sin is not "logical proof"? If you don't believe the bible then there is nothing I can say to convince you.

That wasn't what I asked for.

I don't know what to say. Read the verse. All have sinned, except God of course.

In otherwords, you have no proof?

I didn't interperet anything. I just posted a verse that said Jesus is our only mediator.

To read is to interpret.

Because you are the one that says I have it wrong without bothering to explain what you mean.

And I'm asking you to go to the real authority: Vatican Catholics themselves.

Hentenza · Jun 21, 2007

PaladinValer said:
No, Him and His Mother.

Where does it specifically say she ever sinned?

Where does it say that she did not? Futhermore, why did Mary know that she needed a savior if she hadn't sin?

jckstraw72 · Jun 21, 2007

Where does it say that she did not? Futhermore, why did Mary know that she needed a savior if she hadn't sin?

all humans are born with a fallen nature and will die, regardless of if they sin -- think of newborns who die but didnt have the capacity to sin yet -- they need a savior, else they cannot overcome death.

PaladinValer · Jun 22, 2007

Hentenza said:
Where does it say that she did not?

Nowhere, just as it no where says that she did.

Holy Tradition however teaches that she never did. Since Scripture is silent, I'll trust the Fathers in Apostolic Succession.

Futhermore, why did Mary know that she needed a savior if she hadn't sin?

Because your understanding of why we need a Savior, like your understanding of the Incarnation, is incorrect.

Hentenza · Jun 22, 2007

PaladinValer said:
Nowhere, just as it no where says that she did.

Holy Tradition however teaches that she never did. Since Scripture is silent, I'll trust the Fathers in Apostolic Succession.

Because your understanding of why we need a Savior, like your understanding of the Incarnation, is incorrect.

And that is what happens when tradition superceeds scripture. Pity.

PaladinValer · Jun 22, 2007

Hentenza said:
And that is what happens when tradition superceeds scripture. Pity.

Straw Man.

Apostolic Christianity doesn't believe Tradition superceeds Scripture. We believe as has always been believed: that Scripture is a form of Tradition.

As for your pity, it is misplaced.

SeraphimSarov · Jun 22, 2007

Hentenza said:
And that is what happens when tradition superceeds scripture. Pity.

In the apostolic view of Christianity, that sentence does not even make sense. Scripture is Tradition.

Epiphanygirl · Jun 22, 2007

KjellBjarne said:
In the apostolic view of Christianity, that sentence does not even make sense. Scripture is Tradition.

livingword26 · Jun 22, 2007

PaladinValer said:
Apostolic Christianity doesn't believe Tradition superceeds Scripture. We believe as has always been believed: that Scripture is a form of Tradition.

Scripture never changes. It is always the same, God is always the same. Many of the discussions here are centered around things that have been added to tradition as time has gone by, even though it it not congruent with scripture.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CATALOGUE OF ROME'S DOCTRINES
AND DATES OF THEIR INCEPTION[/FONT]

1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.
2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.
3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.
4. Veneration of saints and angels375 A.D.
5. Mary declared "Mother of God" 431 A.D.
6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.
7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.
8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.
9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.
10. Kissing of the Pope's feet 709 A.D.
11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.
12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.
13. Holy water 850 A.D.
14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.
15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.
16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.
17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.
18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.
19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.
20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.
21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.
22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.
23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.
24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.
26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.
27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.
28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.
29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.
30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.
31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.
32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.
33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.
34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.
35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding 1560 A.D.
36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 1854 A.D.
37. Papal infallibility 1870 A.D.
38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void 1908 A.D.
39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God 1931 A.D.
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary 1950 A.D.

E.C. · Jun 22, 2007

livingword26 said:
Scripture never changes. It is always the same, God is always the same. Many of the discussions here are centered around things that have been added to tradition as time has gone by, even though it it not congruent with scripture.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CATALOGUE OF ROME'S DOCTRINES
AND DATES OF THEIR INCEPTION[/FONT]

1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.

................
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary 1950 A.D.

I will only defend that which applies to Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

1) The dead need our prayers. I'll tell ya why if needed.

2) Sign of the Cross is very edifying. There is a reason for it, just can't remember.

3) Is there something wrong with candles? Christ is the Light of the World, isn't He?

4) Saints are people who are complete. They have heard their recognition. Asking a saint to pray for us is no different than asking your friend to pray for you.

5) Actually, that is an Ephesus "decree", not a Rome decree. This does not mean that she is the Mother of the Trinity. Jesus is God and Man. She brought Him into the world. What do we call those who bring people into the world?

6) Priests have a certain Grace of the Holy Spirit and are to be humble.

7) Would you rather worship in Hebrew, Greek, Pig Latin or Basque? Latin was common in Rome and area.

12) Icons are windows to heaven. They are also evidence of Christ's Incarnation. Also not a Rome decree but is more so a Nicaea "decree".

14) St. Joseph was Christ's foster-father on earth. Should we abandon him?

16) Saints are very holy people. The have earned recognition.

17) In the olden days, a "tithe" was one tenth. Lent is one tenth of the year given to God. Also, fasting detoxifies the body. Friday was the day Christ was crucified. Is that a day of celebration?

18) Rosaries evolved from the prayer rope.

Most of this stuff was believed and practiced. However, like the Trinity which was also believed, it had to be set in stone to keep the heresy level at a minimal.

PaladinValer · Jun 22, 2007

livingword26 said:
Scripture never changes. It is always the same, God is always the same. Many of the discussions here are centered around things that have been added to tradition as time has gone by, even though it it not congruent with scripture.

Historically false.

Oh, and please, next time, don't quote from "Catholics-aren't-Christian websites? They aren't allowed here on CF.

Furthermore, almost every single one of those is far more ancient than what that list states. Ancient as in 1st century ancient. I'll provide you a list of those:

Prayers for the dead
Sign of the Cross
Votives
Veneration of the Saints and Angels
Mary believed to be the Mother of God
Clergy wore vestments
Worship in the Vernacular
Feast Days
Veneration of Saints, relics, and icons
Holy Water
Blessing of liturgical items
Fasting on certain days
Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist
Sacrament of Holy Confession and Absolution
Worship of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist
Existence of Sheol
All Seven Sacraments
Holy Tradition as an authority on faith, doctrine, and salvation
Salvation by Grace through living faith (belief + works)
Dormition of St. Mary.

All of these are 1st century. Argue it with actual history, but as a historian myself, your argument will be very futile.

jckstraw72 · Jun 22, 2007

how the heck can you call votive candles a doctrine of Rome? and why the heck would you have a problem with candles?

E.C. · Jun 22, 2007

jckstraw72 said:
how the heck can you call votive candles a doctrine of Rome? and why the heck would you have a problem with candles?

I don't think they had electricity in 320AD did they?

jckstraw72 · Jun 22, 2007

calling Mary the Mother of God was not introduced in 431 -- the Council proclaimed it in 431 bc of a controversy that had been raging BEFORE the council -- Nestorius would only call her Christokos and not Theotokos -- the Council officially proclaimed what the Church had always taught.

Kepha · Jun 22, 2007

livingword26 said:
No it was Eve. Read it. God was talking to Eve. Also, if anyone has sinned then there can be no enmity between them and Satan? Every member of the Body of Christ is at enmity with Satan, and besides Mary was not sin free.

Impossible to be Eve since she had that fallen nature thing going on. If there is to be complete enmity between the woman and the serpent, then She never should have been in any way subject to him even briefly. This implies one without sin. It was a prophetic foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary.

E.C. · Jun 22, 2007

One Significant Difference Between Orthodoxy and Catholicism:

Immaculate Conception. Roman Catholics say "yay"; Orthodox say "nay; kinda".

Orthodox say that yes, the Theotokos was able to sin, yet did not; she lived a sinless life.

Although what is interesting to note, is that Evangelicals say that you can come to logical conclusions from the Bible. Immaculate Conception is a logical conclusion (I still don't agree with it; just pointing out a hypocrisy).

PaladinValer · Jun 23, 2007

EmperorConstantine said:
One Significant Difference Between Orthodoxy and Catholicism:

Immaculate Conception. Roman Catholics say "yay"; Orthodox say "nay; kinda".

We Anglicans agree with you.

Orthodox say that yes, the Theotokos was able to sin, yet did not; she lived a sinless life.

Although what is interesting to note, is that Evangelicals say that you can come to logical conclusions from the Bible. Immaculate Conception is a logical conclusion (I still don't agree with it; just pointing out a hypocrisy).

Agreed.

The entire concept though, to be honest and fair with our VC brothers and sisters, was to help defend Christ's Messiahship and Deity. And there does exist a logical argument for the belief. My only issue is that it is still unnecessary given the fact that she was never guilty of original sin and that her theosic cooperation with the Holy Spirit was such that her nature was restored to a pre-fallen state as was her soul healed so that she was indeed worthy to be the Theotokos.

Of course, I would never suggest that her theosis was complete at that time. It was not so until her Dormition, which was witnessed by the Apostles (minus St. Thomas) themselves. Still, in a "whole" human state, she would have been worthy then to be God's Mommy.

O Holy Mother of God, pray for us that, through imitating your choices, we too may experience the completion of our theosis and experience the full joy of the ever-lasting Presence of your Offspring, our God!

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