Veil removed...

[ChiRho]

Click for veil removal

 

[RedneckAnglican]

better than what I listened to yesterday...

 

[SPALATIN]

The Pastor who delivered the sermon yesterday at the church my wife and I attend (we are not bonafide members here yet.) was the Pastor who officiated my confirmation 29 years ago.

 

[ChiRho]

Imagine that silly sinners, Christ is the Samaritan. Here, I thought that parable to be all Law. Silly sinner am I.

 

[ChiRho]

The Pastor who delivered the sermon yesterday at the church my wife and I attend (we are not bonafide members here yet.) was the Pastor who officiated my confirmation 29 years ago.

That's cool, where is the church?

 

[SPALATIN]

That's cool, where is the church?

Whoa there ChiRho,

What I failed to mention was that he was filling in for the regular pastor who took a week off. But it was interesting listening to someone I haven't heard sermonize in probably 15 years or more. This church is far too liberal for your palate. We did the Chicago Folk Service yesterday. I don't know if you have ever had the (I don't know if privilege is the correct word) opportunity to take part in this service but it was developed by someone in the 70s who was part of one of the synods that became the ELCA.

Every week this church does something a bit different. One week we will be entirely traditional and the next we will be a full contemporary service.

I go there because it is the only Lutheran church that my wife will attend with me now.

 

[ChiRho]

Whoa there ChiRho,

What I failed to mention was that he was filling in for the regular pastor who took a week off. But it was interesting listening to someone I haven't heard sermonize in probably 15 years or more. This church is far too liberal for your palate. We did the Chicago Folk Service yesterday. I don't know if you have ever had the (I don't know if privilege is the correct word) opportunity to take part in this service but it was developed by someone in the 70s who was part of one of the synods that became the ELCA.

Every week this church does something a bit different. One week we will be entirely traditional and the next we will be a full contemporary service.

I go there because it is the only Lutheran church that my wife will attend with me now.

Did you just say "Chicago Folk Service?"

I have never heard of such a thing. It may be time to grab that hovering ankle and place your foot firmly in it's correct position: down.

"Honey, it is good and right that you desire to dedicate yourself to our children and stay home with them. It is good that you are looking to me as the spiritual and financial head of the family. Now, please, allow me to love my family as God has instructed. We go to [any local confessional Lutheran church will suffice] on Sunday. That is all."

 

[SPALATIN]

Did you just say "Chicago Folk Service?"

I have never heard of such a thing. It may be time to grab that hovering ankle and place your foot firmly in it's correct position: down.

"Honey, it is good and right that you desire to dedicate yourself to our children and stay home with them. It is good that you are looking to me as the spiritual and financial head of the family. Now, please, allow me to love my family as God has instructed. We go to [any local confessional Lutheran church will suffice] on Sunday. That is all."

Tell you what ChiRho,

Before you can give me advice like this you must get married to a real headstrong person and stay so for 10 years or more and then tell me to put my foot down. If we move I am hoping that all we have available is Confessional Lutheran churches nearby. She knows I won't stray from the Lutheran church and I figure that by giving into her wishes to be a stay at home mom, that she will give up on her end and capitulate to my wishes for church life.

I am not angry at you, but be careful how you give advice when you are not walking in my moccaSINS.

 

[ChiRho]

Tell you what ChiRho,

Before you can give me advice like this you must get married to a real headstrong person and stay so for 10 years or more and then tell me to put my foot down. If we move I am hoping that all we have available is Confessional Lutheran churches nearby. She knows I won't stray from the Lutheran church and I figure that by giving into her wishes to be a stay at home mom, that she will give up on her end and capitulate to my wishes for church life.

I am not angry at you, but be careful how you give advice when you are not walking in my moccaSINS.

And I must be a soldier to speak on war? Or a congressman to assess government?

I didn't intend to strike a nerve. It just seemed obviously fair, with her recent decision, to allow you to choose the congregation. She cannot have it both ways; her argument would not be consistent. Again, nothing but raw, unemotional assessment. I am speaking in only practical terms. And of course, it is Scriptural.

 

[LilLamb219]

I enjoyed listening to the sermon

I've read on LutherQuest that Christ is the Samaritan and it was nice to hear it again.

 

[SPALATIN]

And I must be a soldier to speak on war? Or a congressman to assess government?

I didn't intend to strike a nerve. It just seemed obviously fair, with her recent decision, to allow you to choose the congregation. She cannot have it both ways; her argument would not be consistent. Again, nothing but raw, unemotional assessment. I am speaking in only practical terms. And of course, it is Scriptural.

I understand and that is why I am not angry with you, but sometimes when you or anyone deems to give advice to someone in my position and you are not in that position it comes across in a negative way. You are certainly not married and that is where I am coming from. I realize what scripture says, but I don't know that she does.

She stays away from much of scripture unless it is sunday and we are in the bible class. She doesn't read Christian literature of any kind (can't say as I blame her there.) She tends to concentrate on only those scripture verses that relate to her current situation. We are definitely in different places spiritually. So I tend to lead in this area whereas she leads in getting the house ready for sale.

 

[ChiRho]

I understand and that is why I am not angry with you, but sometimes when you or anyone deems to give advice to someone in my position and you are not in that position it comes across in a negative way. You are certainly not married and that is where I am coming from. I realize what scripture says, but I don't know that she does.

She stays away from much of scripture unless it is sunday and we are in the bible class. She doesn't read Christian literature of any kind (can't say as I blame her there.) She tends to concentrate on only those scripture verses that relate to her current situation. We are definitely in different places spiritually. So I tend to lead in this area whereas she leads in getting the house ready for sale.

ChiRho vanishes to the pm conduit...

 

[Joykins]

When are some of you men going to learn that the husband "putting the foot down" != "wife submitting"? That is HER job, not HIS.

 

[ChiRho]

When are some of you men going to learn that the husband "putting the foot down" != "wife submitting"? That is HER job, not HIS.

About the same time you realize that this is not an issue of power, but of life and death.

 

[Joykins]

About the same time you realize that this is not an issue of power, but of life and death.

Explain, then?

You can force a person to pretend to submit. If they really are going to submit it really has to come from the heart.

 

[ChiRho]

Explain, then?

You can force a person to pretend to submit. If they really are going to submit it really has to come from the heart.

Huh? I am not sure what you are asking, but I will try. One may disagree with someone, and yet submit to their judgement. It doesn't necessarily mean "pretend" submission. Oh, and we know what comes from the heart...and it ain't no good, neitha.

But anyway, it was/is never about power. To even think of it in those terms is not right. Your post,

When are some of you men going to learn that the husband "putting the foot down" != "wife submitting"? That is HER job, not HIS.

seems to twist reality around a bit. First, the wake-up call to us, macho-knuckle draggers (the some men who just can't learn despite plenty of attempts at instruction, I assume). Next, an attempt at a power flip, when you try to teach us that it is the woman who holds the power by either granting or refusing submission. Perhaps it will appeal better to more women if we speak about the commandment in these terms, but it still would not be right. It is not good to misrepresent the passage. We are to serve for the sake of serving. We are to love our wife, regardless of the response. And she is to submit, regardless. It is not a twisted, "we really possess the power by granting you leadership" nonsense.

 

[Joykins]

Huh? I am not sure what you are asking, but I will try. One may disagree with someone, and yet submit to their judgement. It doesn't necessarily mean "pretend" submission. Oh, and we know what comes from the heart...and it ain't no good, neitha.

Certainly you may disagree with someone and yet submit to their judgment. However, if you don't geniuinely *submit*, but just go through the motions of obedience for whatever reason--fear is a biggie--then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

But anyway, it was/is never about power. To even think of it in those terms is not right.

I totally agree with you there.

Your post,
seems to twist reality around a bit. First, the wake-up call to us, macho-knuckle draggers (the some men who just can't learn despite plenty of attempts at instruction, I assume). Next, an attempt at a power flip, when you try to teach us that it is the woman who holds the power by either granting or refusing submission. Perhaps it will appeal better to more women if we speak about the commandment in these terms, but it still would not be right. It is not good to misrepresent the passage. We are to serve for the sake of serving. We are to love our wife, regardless of the response. And she is to submit, regardless. It is not a twisted, "we really possess the power by granting you leadership" nonsense.

It is NOT ABOUT POWER. It is about love.

I don't know when it was in our first years of marriage that my husband told me that he felt that I did not trust, love, or respect him, because I always insisted on having my own way. Well, that night I got dizzy as God worked on flipping my heart over to see things his way I decided to submit to my husband as my own sacrifice of love for him. And it has paid me back one thousand fold. First, now that he knows I am not always fighting him, it opened his heart to truly listen to me when I have something important to say. He shows his love for me right back. And the decisions that he has made that I didn't like but submitted to anyway turned out well, too--in many cases my position was foolish. This was very hard for me to do since I can be very bossy and all the women in my family are pretty domineering (they keep asking me why I haven't got my husband trained yet).

I do this because I love my husband and it is an important way of showing it.
If he had "put his foot down" said "You need to submit to me as God intended" and had demanded my submission, it probably would have hardened my heart. God spoke, as he so often does, through vulnerability.

 

[SPALATIN]

Certainly you may disagree with someone and yet submit to their judgment. However, if you don't geniuinely *submit*, but just go through the motions of obedience for whatever reason--fear is a biggie--then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.



I totally agree with you there.



It is NOT ABOUT POWER. It is about love.

I don't know when it was in our first years of marriage that my husband told me that he felt that I did not trust, love, or respect him, because I always insisted on having my own way. Well, that night I got dizzy as God worked on flipping my heart over to see things his way I decided to submit to my husband as my own sacrifice of love for him. And it has paid me back one thousand fold. First, now that he knows I am not always fighting him, it opened his heart to truly listen to me when I have something important to say. He shows his love for me right back. And the decisions that he has made that I didn't like but submitted to anyway turned out well, too--in many cases my position was foolish. This was very hard for me to do since I can be very bossy and all the women in my family are pretty domineering (they keep asking me why I haven't got my husband trained yet).

I do this because I love my husband and it is an important way of showing it.
If he had "put his foot down" said "You need to submit to me as God intended" and had demanded my submission, it probably would have hardened my heart. God spoke, as he so often does, through vulnerability.

Joykins,

That fear you mention is because you didn't trust your husband's ability to choose the right church for you and your family. I agree that submission is out of love, but with that love should come trust and if love and trust are not working together there is a tendency for rebellion on one or another's part.

 

[Joykins]

Joykins,

That fear you mention is because you didn't trust your husband's ability to choose the right church for you and your family. I agree that submission is out of love, but with that love should come trust and if love and trust are not working together there is a tendency for rebellion on one or another's part.

My disagreements with my husband were not actually over church-related things, but I think you make a very good point about trust.

But it's interesting you bring the church issue up--if my husband decides that the Lutheran church is not right for us, then we won't go there. I trust him on that. However, I know that he values my opinions on things which helps ME to trust HIM.

 

[saami]

Tell you what ChiRho,

Before you can give me advice like this you must get married to a real headstrong person and stay so for 10 years or more and then tell me to put my foot down. If we move I am hoping that all we have available is Confessional Lutheran churches nearby. She knows I won't stray from the Lutheran church and I figure that by giving into her wishes to be a stay at home mom, that she will give up on her end and capitulate to my wishes for church life.

I am not angry at you, but be careful how you give advice when you are not walking in my moccaSINS.

I knew you were from Minnesota - my Dad always used this last saying, too.

My husband and I got a hoot out of a 24 years old - (and I think I remember from another thread - porshe driving kid) giving advise on marriage to a husband and father of two. If my son (about ChiRho's age) were to mouth off to his Dad regarding me that way he'd learn something about respecting and submission. I think the woodshed comes to mind...spare the rod, spoil the ...