Vegetarianism: Doctrine of demons?

[NightEternal]

I was listening to a Christian radio station on my drive home tonight and a pastor (not Adventist) had a very (ahem) interesting sermon on vegetarianism. His basic premise is as follows (I pulled over and took notes):

Vegetarianism was part of honoring demons in the pre-flood corruption of humanity. In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Paul claims people will follow seducing or decieving spirits and teachings of demons which includes abstaining from certain foods which God created to be recieved with thanksgiving. History and archeology show that in demonic religions vegetarianism was rampant. Hinduism, Buddhism and certain New Age religions all embrace vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is taught in these religions in conjunction with the promises of heightened spiritual awareness or the elitist, superior quality of a person who abstains from meat-this is actually a doctrine of demons that can be connected with spirit worship and spirit honoring. Religious vegetarianism that promises enhanced spiritual perception or heightened spiritual awareness is actually demonic teaching.

Have you figured out where he is going with this yet? I hope I don't have to spell it out for you, but, yes, he is definitely going there:

Adventism elevates vegetarianism to salvation status. They are no better than the false Eastern religions that use diet to bring themselves closer to the spirit realm. Ellen White made claims such as 'meat-eaters will not be translated in the end', 'controls the animal passions and subdues the sensual nature', 'meat-eating enervates the nervous system and inflames man's nature to base, carnal, animal-like qualities' and 'vegetarianism provides a clear mind to percieve the Spirit better'. Mrs. White clearly taught enhanced spirituality through the medium of vegetarianism.

I have heard this premise before, but this guy just takes it to a whole new level!

Has anyone else heard this argument? I'm not vegetarian and will never be one, so it is a moot issue for me. But it is clearly a unique, fancy attempt at discrediting vegetarianism.

 

[woobadooba]

I was listening to a Christian radio station on my drive home tonight and a pastor (not Adventist) had a very (ahem) interesting sermon on vegetarianism. His basic premise is as follows (I pulled over and took notes):

Vegetarianism was part of honoring demons in the pre-flood corruption of humanity. In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Paul claims people will follow seducing or decieving spirits and teachings of demons which includes abstaining from certain foods which God created to be recieved with thanksgiving. History and archeology show that in demonic religions vegetarianism was rampant. Hinduism, Buddhism and certain New Age religions all embrace vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is taught in these religions in conjunction with the promises of heightened spiritual awareness or the elitist, superior quality of a person who abstains from meat-this is actually a doctrine of demons that can be connected with spirit worship and spirit honoring. Religious vegetarianism that promises enhanced spiritual perception or heightened spiritual awareness is actually demonic teaching.

Have you figured out where he is going with this yet? I hope I don't have to spell it out for you, but, yes, he is definitely going there:

Adventism elevates vegetarianism to salvation status. They are no better than the false Eastern religions that use diet to bring themselves closer to the spirit realm. Ellen White made claims such as 'meat-eaters will not be translated in the end', 'controls the animal passions and subdues the sensual nature', 'meat-eating enervates the nervous system and inflames man's nature to base, carnal, animal-like qualities' and 'vegetarianism provides a clear mind to percieve the Spirit better'. Mrs. White clearly taught enhanced spirituality through the medium of vegetarianism.

I have heard this premise before, but this guy just takes it to a whole new level!

Has anyone else heard this argument? I'm not vegetarian and will never be one, so it is a moot issue for me. But it is clearly a unique, fancy attempt at discrediting vegetarianism.

There are people within the church that elevate vegetarianism to a salvation status, but no where in any of our doctrines do we state such a thing.

I am getting quite tired of your generalizations, Night. Stop it!

 

[JonMiller]

Less then 50% of SDAs are vegeterrian. If it once was salvation status, it isn't any more. There are lots of vegeterrians now, most I know aren't Christian at all... (and there are good arguments to be vegeterrian also)

JM

 

[NightEternal]

There are people within the church that elevate vegetarianism to a salvation status, but no where in any of our doctrines do we state such a thing.

I am getting quite tired of your generalizations, Night. Stop it!

Okay, did you even read the post!? I didn't say that, I was quoting a preacher on the radio!

And for the final time, quit barking orders at me. I'm not your dog!

 

[woobadooba]

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(Php 4:8)

 

[OntheDL]

I have heard this premise before, but this guy just takes it to a whole new level!

Has anyone else heard this argument? I'm not vegetarian and will never be one, so it is a moot issue for me. But it is clearly a unique, fancy attempt at discrediting vegetarianism.

Lets dissect 1 Tim 4...

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Here is my problems with this premise:

1. This epistle was written for the new gentile believers on christian conduct. As we see with many of Paul's writings, the problem facing the new gentile church was judaizing: falling back to the legalistic jewish view of salvation.

In many case, the judaizers followed Paul after he left, they would go in and contend the new gentiles must keep the law of Moses in order to be saved. This can be seen in Acts 15.

So in this case Paul did not have the endtime issues in mind, but the new challenge facing the baby gentile christians.

2. Point one becomes evident as we examine verse 3. "forbidding to marry". Paul did not have the Roman Catholic Church's celibacy in mind which was hundreds of years away. He was worried about the immediate threat.

A sect of the jews at Jesus' time practiced celibacy. The were called the Essenes.

3. "and commanding to abstain from meats". The word meat or meats simply mean food, not necessarily animal product. So that in itself dispelled the anti-vegetarian premise.

Certain food was forbidden for ceremonial purposes. Since Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the ceremonies and the sacrifices ended at the cross.

4. When people read one verse and make a doctrine out of it, we get problems. Lets continue to read verse 7

7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

What fable was Paul talking about? One fable Paul had ever talked about in his writings:

Titus 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The custom of Jews defined in rabbinical laws in Talmud. The commandments of men or tradition of elders were the Talmudic laws that Jesus condemned.

5. And lastly Daniel and his 3 hebrews friend refused to the Babylonian king's portion. What did they request for food? According to Daniel 1: vegetarian food. So by that premise I guess Daniel and the 3 hebrews were really serving demons.

So clearly Paul was cautioning the new gentile christians against accepting the jewish rabbinical practices, it has nothing to do with vegetarianism at all.

 

[NightEternal]

Interesting.

By no means is this man's arguments airtight, that should be quite obvious. I thought he had some good points, especially in regards to EGW, but the merit and validity that was present was hopelessly lost in over-the-top conclusions and rhetoric.

 

[mva1985]

I'm not vegetarian and will never be one, so it is a moot issue for me. But it is clearly a unique, fancy attempt at discrediting vegetarianism.

Night,

I was once a vegetarian but fell off the wagon, and would like to get back on. I do not believe it is a salvation issue. The Bible tells us what meats we are allowed to eat.

My question to you is why do you say that you will never be one? Just curious really.

Thanks

 

[OntheDL]

Vegetarianism is about health and temperance.

Considering the health issues related to the lack of standard and control of the meat industry, it'd do your body good to become a vegetarian.

Didn't the bible say honour the body for it is the temple of the holy spirit?

If somehow information proves apples have become harmful to our health, would you still eat them even if the bible does not forbid?

 

[NightEternal]

Night,

I was once a vegetarian but fell off the wagon, and would like to get back on. I do not believe it is a salvation issue. The Bible tells us what meats we are allowed to eat.

My question to you is why do you say that you will never be one? Just curious really.

Thanks

Because I won't. I see no need to and have no desire to. I enjoy eating and like a variety. The vegetarian diet to me is very limiting and holds no appeal for me.

I am glad you do not see it as a salvation issue. Some TSDA's do.

 

[mva1985]

Because I won't. I see no need to and have no desire to. I enjoy eating and like a variety. The vegetarian diet to me is very limiting and holds no appeal for me.

I am glad you do not see it as a salvation issue. Some TSDA's do.

Thanks for your answer brother!

 

[OntheDL]

I'm a vegetarian but I fall sometimes when I visit my mother. To save the fight, we just eat her food but she knows no pork and seafood.

I became a vegetarian after I watched a video on the meat industry. If you saw how they handle, store the meat and especially what they put in to ground the 'beef' up (sick animals, dead horse), I doubt you would ever want to eat it again. Yikes!

Besides they don't properly drain the blood from the meat, cooking animal proteins produces carcinogen. It causes cancer.

 

[mva1985]

I'm a vegetarian but I fall sometimes when I visit my mother. To save the fight, we just eat her food but she knows no pork and seafood.

I became a vegetarian after I watched a video on the meat industry. If you saw how they handle, store the meat and especially what they put in to ground the 'beef' up (sick animals, dead horse), I doubt you would ever want to eat it again. Yikes!

Besides they don't properly drain the blood from the meat, cooking animal proteins produces carcinogen. It causes cancer.

DL,

I agree with you regarding the health issue. I believe it is healthier, and I want to become vegetarian again.

How's the color change?

 

[NightEternal]

Vegetarianism is about health and temperance.

You can have a balanced, healthy diet with meat products. People have been doing it for years.

Considering the health issues related to the lack of standard and control of the meat industry, it'd do your body good to become a vegetarian.

My body is just fine. I am slim and within the ideal weight for my height.

The meat industry standard and control thing is way overblown and overhyped. It's just more fear-mongering. But, you are free to believe whatever you want.

And yes, I have read Mad Cowboy and Fast Food Nation.

Didn't the bible say honour the body for it is the temple of the holy spirit?

That passage is not talking about food. It is made in the context of temple prostitution and as a warning against defiling one's body with sexual immorality. SDA's only use that as an out of context proof-text to promote thier diet ideology.

If somehow information proves apples have become harmful to our health, would you still eat them even if the bible does not forbid?

Nice try, but you aren't going to corner me and use this discussion as an instrument to shove your agenda down my throat. I see where this is all going, so let's just save ourselves some time and avoid the baiting techniques.

 

[Jon0388g]

I am not a vegetarian, but I am considering becoming one. Its been impressed on my mind lately.

Especially since I accidently ate a prawn the other day....yes brethren, pray for my soul. It was disgusting anyway.


EGW did make a special emphasis on healthy lifestyle, and we know her counsels were way, way beyond her time. She warned that the standard of meat produced in the last days would decline so much that it would literally be deadly to the body to keep up the intake.


Foot and mouth, Mad Cow, Bird flu, the list goes on.


She also warned to practice a vegetarian diet because the availability of clean meat when persecution comes will be scarce. We will not be able to buy/sell, so living on a simple sustainable diet of veg/fruit etc will prepare us for harder times.



Jon

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

I became a vegetarian because I abhor the inherent violence in the meat industry. Also, we are destroying our environment by the industrialisation of meat production. Farming animals uses far to much water and energy resources than this planet can afford. And there is too much wastage. We over produce meat and under consume it.

I do not judge anyones choice to eat meat, but for me it has become an ethical issue. It is true that if slaughter houses were made of glass walls, there would be alot more vegetarians.


What I heard on the radio tonight is interesting. They were reading letters from westerners who were shocked to visit some Buddhist places in Asia and find that not all Buddhists are vegetarians.

 

[TrustAndObey]

If you've ever driven by a stockyard (there's one in Kansas), you would not believe the smell. It is the most horrendous thing I've ever smelled in my life, and those poor animals are kept there, standing in their own waste while they are gorged with fattening things to "marbelize" their meat.

They throw up a lot and have to stand in that too.

It's inhumane.

I don't think any suggestion that has been proven to extend life is evil.

Vegetarians are healthier people, that's been proven time after time after time.

The meat you buy in a grocery store is not raised or slaughtered in the biblical way. There's no getting around that for me.

You are eating a carcass by the time you buy it in the grocery store.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

1. Quit freaking shouting, you aren't making yourself any more heard because:
2. You ought to practice it yourself before demanding it of others -- and you do not. All you do is kvetch, moan and criticise anyone who doesn't tow the party line. It's old, it's boring, you can stop now. And no, it is NOT a divine mandate so you can shuck that delusion along with the rest.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Here is my problems with this premise:

1. This epistle was written for the new gentile believers on christian conduct. As we see with many of Paul's writings, the problem facing the new gentile church was judaizing: falling back to the legalistic jewish view of salvation.

Which the majority of the SDA church does nowadays with its toxic "justification BY sanctification" soteriology.

 

[woobadooba]

1. Quit freaking shouting, you aren't making yourself any more heard because:
2. You ought to practice it yourself before demanding it of others -- and you do not. All you do is kvetch, moan and criticise anyone who doesn't tow the party line. It's old, it's boring, you can stop now. And no, it is NOT a divine mandate so you can shuck that delusion along with the rest.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.