Vatican Issues First Comments On Trump’s Immigration Ban

[Fish and Bread]

Link:

Vatican Issues First Comments On Trump's Immigration Ban | The Huffington Post

 

[inquiring mind]

“Pope Francis, in fact, insists on the ability to integrate those who arrive in our societies and cultures,”...

The only place left with a culture is the Vatican.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Link:

Vatican Issues First Comments On Trump's Immigration Ban | The Huffington Post

Thanks for sharing the link, Fish. I am glad to see the Pope and the bishops step up like this for immigrants and refugees.

 

[Brad Tucker]

Link:

Vatican Issues First Comments On Trump's Immigration Ban | The Huffington Post

 

[Shiloh Raven]

First of all, it seems a friendly reminder of the rules of TLT, a Catholic forum, is necessary in this thread.

Visitors are welcome to share and participate in discussions with us. However, visitors must do so respectfully. This forum does not exist as a place for visitors to come and debate contentiously over why they disagree with us. If you are are a visitor and you would like to learn more about our viewpoints or beliefs, or perhaps you just want to understand how we feel about a specific issue, then you are welcome. But this is not a place to teach us the errors of our ways.

And the House Rules.

All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the beliefs of this group will be considered off topic.

For further information on how guests are expected to conduct themselves in the Catholic safe haven of TLT, please refer to the TLT Statement of Purpose. All guests are expected to be respectful to topics related to the Catholic Church in TLT.

Secondly, for the record.

No, Internet, the Vatican is not a walled city

In Defense of Trump, Some Point (Wrongly) to Vatican Walls

Sorry Donald Trump, the Vatican is not actually a walled-off city

 

[Anhelyna]

try reading this article from Crux about the walled city

No, Internet, the Vatican is not a walled city

 

[Armoured]

Link:

Vatican Issues First Comments On Trump's Immigration Ban | The Huffington Post

"Pope Francis isn't a real Catholic" in 3...2...

 

[Shiloh Raven]

"Pope Francis isn't a real Catholic" in 3...2...

The meme in post #4?

 

[mea kulpa]

Every nation has the right to distinguish, by country of origin, who can migrate to it and apply appropriate immigration policies, according to the great medieval scholar and saint Thomas Aquinas.

In a surprisingly contemporary passage of his Summa Theologica, Aquinas noted that the Jewish people of Old Testament times did not admit visitors from all nations equally, since those peoples closer to them were more quickly integrated into the population than those who were not as close.

Some antagonistic peoples were not admitted at all into Israel due to their hostility toward the Jewish people.

The Law “prescribed in respect of certain nations that had close relations with the Jews,” the scholar noted, such as the Egyptians and the Idumeans, “that they should be admitted to the fellowship of the people after the third generation.”

Citizens of other nations “with whom their relations had been hostile,” such as the Ammonites and Moabites, “were never to be admitted to citizenship.”

“The Amalekites, who were yet more hostile to them, and had no fellowship of kindred with them, were to be held as foes in perpetuity,” Aquinas observed.

For the scholar, it seemed sensible to treat nations differently, depending on the affinity of their cultures with that of Israel as well as their historic relations with the Jewish people.

In his remarkably nuanced commentary, Aquinas also distinguished among three types of immigrants in the Israel of the Old Testament.

First were “the foreigners who passed through their land as travelers,” much like modern day visitors with a travel visa.

Second were those who “came to dwell in their land as newcomers,” seemingly corresponding to resident aliens, perhaps with a green card, living in the land but not with the full benefits of citizenship.

A third case involved those foreigners who wished “to be admitted entirely to their fellowship and mode of worship.” Even here, dealing with those who wished to integrate fully into the life and worship of Israel required a certain order, Aquinas observed. “For they were not at once admitted to citizenship: just as it was law with some nations that no one was deemed a citizen except after two or three generations.”

“The reason for this was that if foreigners were allowed to meddle with the affairs of a nation as soon as they settled down in its midst,” Aquinas logically reasoned, “many dangers might occur, since the foreigners not yet having the common good firmly at heart might attempt something hurtful to the people.”

In other words, Aquinas taught that total integration of immigrants into the life, language, customs and culture (including worship, in this case) was necessary for full citizenship.

It requires time for someone to learn which issues affect the nation and to make them their own, Aquinas argued. Those who know the history of their nation and have lived in it, working for the common good, are best suited to participate in decision-making about its future.

It would be dangerous and unjust to place the future of a nation in the hands of recent arrivals who do not fully understand the needs and concerns of their adoptive home.

When facing contemporary problems, modern policy makers can often benefit from the wisdom of the great saints and scholars who have dealt with versions of the same issues in ages past.

Aquinas’ reflections reveal that similar problems have existed for centuries—indeed, millennia—and that distinguishing prudently between nations and cultures doesn’t automatically imply prejudice or unfair discrimination.

Sometimes, it’s just the right thing to do.

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The reason for the judicial precepts (Prima Secundae Partis, Q. 105)

Breitbart News Is Experiencing a “Thomistic Drift”!

 

[Armoured]

The meme in post #4?

Close. I've heard worse, though. See also: the reaction of the Catholic Usual Suspects after the Pope acknowledged that climate change is a thing.

 

[Martinius]

View attachment 189165

What complete trash. The Vatican, like many old European cities, has walls, built centuries ago. But they do not prevent people from entering. What utter anti-Catholic prejudice. Take it to Bretibart.

 

[tadoflamb]

try reading this article from Crux about the walled city

No, Internet, the Vatican is not a walled city

Thank you.

 

[Armoured]

try reading this article from Crux about the walled city

No, Internet, the Vatican is not a walled city

Ah, but those are just facts. With superior, bigly, alternate facts, we can see the Vatican is surrounded by razor wire topped walls with a crocodile infested moat. The crocodiles have lasers, too.

 

[Martinius]

Sometimes, it’s just the right thing to do.

That is the only thing you posted that I can agree with. But you conveniently ignore how it was done, how poorly it was done, to whom it was done, and how un-supportable the reasons given. I don't think anyone is against proper procedures and vetting of refugees, but that is in place and may only need to be adjusted. But Trump and his controller, Bannon, acted without thinking, without consulting, without planning, without considering the actual consequences. It exposed their ignorance and their utter disdain for anyone outside the alt-right.

And welcome, all those from the dark side of the force (Steve Bannon=Darth Vader), to TLT. I, for one, welcome your posts as Exhibits A---Z for what Catholics, Christians of all kinds, humanitarians, the Pope, and concerned Americans are up against.

 

[Martinius]

Ah, but those are just facts. With superior, bigly, alternate facts, we can see the Vatican is surrounded by razor wire topped walls with a crocodile infested moat. The crocodiles have lasers, too.

They must have traded in the sharks for crocs, then. I didn't know. Gee, I wonder if Muslims and other non-Christians are allowed inside the walls of the Vatican?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Bretibart News? SMH.

I might as well read the National Enquirer or some other tabloid and expect to find truth and honest reporting.

 

[Armoured]

They must have traded in the sharks for crocs, then. I didn't know. Gee, I wonder if Muslims and other non-Christians are allowed inside the walls of the Vatican?

Nope. Thus making the Pope's virtue signalling all the more hypocritical.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Why would anyone use that rag in the OP to reference anything from the Vatican?

 

[Fish and Bread]

Every nation has the right to distinguish, by country of origin, who can migrate to it and apply appropriate immigration policies, according to the great medieval scholar and saint Thomas Aquinas.

1. St. Thomas Aquinas was talking about laws pertaining to the ancient nation of Israel, not then-modern Christian nations, who did not live under Old Testament law.

2. Even as it pertains to Israel, we can see that some passages and even entire books of the bible encouraged Jews to welcome immigrants. He even quotes a few of them (There are more.). This was likely a debate that went back and forth even in Old Testament times.

3. Christianity is a universal religion, rather than a national religious. Pope Benedict XVI, of all people, writes about this in one of his books. The bible says that "In Christ there is no Greek or Jew.".

4. The universal magisterium of the Church in modern times says that we should welcome refugees and immigrants.

5. Vatican II encourages us to do so.

6. During World War 2, Jewish folks fled her on ships and were turned back at port, and sent back to Nazi Germany and other Nazi-controlled countries to die. It is not right to send people back to places controlled by ISIS to die when we could easily take them in here. ISIS is there in part because our war in Iraq destabilized he region.

See also: Anne Frank Was A Refugee, Too | The Huffington Post

7. St. Thomas Aquinas, while a very influential Saint when it comes to the next few hundred years of western theology after him, is not the be all and end all of theology. He has been contradicted in some cases by authoritative church teaching, and represents a certain school of theology rather than being a generalist. Also, he of course had no knowledge of some of the complexities of our time, so when he writes about subjects like immigration, he is writing of a very different world with a very different geo-political situation, and to some extent, different, stakes. It seems a little anachronistic to throw his comments from the 13th century and apply them to a refugee crisis in the 21st century.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Why would anyone use that rag in the OP to reference anything from the Vatican?

I happen to like the Huffington Post.

As to why I picked it in particular to use as a source article for this thread, it was because that's where I saw the article in the course of catching up on the latest political news. I don't know if anyone else is reporting it or whether there is a better article out there, but the article seemed good enough to me to get a conversation going.

While I understand that some people don't like it for political reasons, no one is disputing that the Vatican said what it said, right? If anyone is questioning that, I guess I can look for more sources a bit later. Right now I have to get ready for an appointment, but I'll be online later. Maybe from a waiting room.