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Someone on another thread posted this website www.traditionalromancatholicism.com
regarding a different subject. But when i went on it to look there were bunches of articles. The following article is taken from that sight and is talking about Vatican II not being infallible. I would like opinions on the following article!!! It is a bit disturbing to me, as well as the whole website! Anyone know more about it?
________________________________________________
Vatican II was Pastoral not infallible
Today, in the modern Church many, somehow believe that Vatican II was infallible. That all Catholics must treat this council as the council to end all councils. First we must consider that the Pope who called for and closed the council stated without question that it was " Pastoral" and not infallible. So the question arises why do liberals constantly say we must believe as an article of faith the documents from this council? The reason is of course that they are trying to misrepresent authentic Catholic teaching with this so called up to date version. Nothing can be infallible when it contradicts 2000 years of teaching. Yes it was a council, but NO IT WAS NOT INFALLIBLE. Lets see the first example of how the Pope who called for the council treated its authority:
The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. [...] The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character. (Opening Address, October 11, 1962; Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 715)
So we see Pope John XXIII did not intend this council to be infallible. After all who could read "Guadium et Spes" with all the talk of religious liberties and not see this is counter to Ven. Pope Pius IX Syllabus of Errors? As a matter of fact, Cardinal Ratzinger the present Prefect of the Congregation of Fatih wrote that this is to reject the what the Church already had condemned
If it is desirable to offer a diagnosis of the text [Gaudium et Spes] as a whole, we might say that (in conjunction with the texts on religious liberty and world religions) it is a revision of the Syllabus of Pius IX, a kind of countersyllabus. [...] Let us be content to say that the text serves as a countersyllabus and, as such, represents, on the part of the Church, an attempt at an official reconciliation with the new era inaugurated in 1789. (Principles of Catholic Theology, 1987, pp. 381-2, Ignatius Press 1987)
How could a catholic in good conscience accept a writing as infallible when it not only has never been universally accepted, but has actually been rejected??
The Theological Commission of the Council made a declaration, a nota previa (preliminary note), concerning the theological note of Vatican II on March 6, 1964; Pope Paul VI had it read, by the councils General Secretary, Pericle Cardinal Felici, who was the Prefect of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office, to the council participants on November 16 of that year, to assure them that it was not an infallible council, before they gave their approval to the first conciliar text, that on the Church, called Lumen Gentium. The declaration was published as an addenda to that text. It says that as the council was intended to be pastoral, it should not be understood to be infallibly defining any matter unless it openly says so (which it never did):
In view of the conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present Council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so. (Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 98)
Paul VI also stated that Vatican II was not infallible when he concluded it, as follows:
Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. [...] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man's conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is. (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 58; http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6tolast.htm)
Paul VI also stated a year later:
" There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification , the council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church's infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council , it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner and dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."
General Audience , December 1, 1966 published in L'Oservatore Romano 1/21/1966
Paul VI confirmed again in 1975 that Vatican II was pastoral and not infallible dogmatic council:
" Differing from other councils , this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral."
General audience August 6, 1975.
Our Holy Father has stated:
" Pope John conceived the council as eminently pastoral event." ( Angelus 10/27/85 )
Cardinal Ratzinger stated:
" Certainly there is a mentality of narrow views that isolates Vatican II and which provoked this opposition. There are many accounts of it , which give the impression that from Vatican II onward ,
everything has changed , and what preceded it has no value or, at best , has value in the light of Vatican II..... The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level , as merely a pastoral council."
( Address to the Chilean Episcopal Conference , II Sabato 30/7 5/8/1988
Pope Paul VI stated:
" The church finds herself in an hour of anxiety, a disturbed period of self-criticism , or what would even be better called self-destruction. It is an interior upheaval , acute, and complicated, which nobody expected after the Council. It is almost as if the Church were attacking itself . We looked forward to a flowing , a serene expansion of conceptions which matured in the sessions of the Council. But one must notice above all the sorrowful aspect. It is as if the church were destroying herself."
( Address to the Lombard Seminary 12/7/1968 )
Pope Paul VI later stated:
" We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God."
And later he stated:
" The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to the summit. Apostasy , the loss of faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels of the Church."
( Address on the sixtieth Anniversary of the Fatima Apparitions. 10/13/1977 )
So we see that the Church has NEVER declared Vatican II infallible and any teaching coming from this Council must be weighed against the traditional teaching of the Church. We also note that the the Pope who closed the Council realizes the loss of faith and Apostasy from this Council, even to the leaders of the Church. So no Catholic should ever be intimidated to believe he must treat this Council as an infallible one. No Catholic can be made to believe this councils teachings when they contradict 2000 years of teaching from Holy Mother the Church. The fruits of this Council are obvious and were obvious to Pope Paul VI. "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church."
regarding a different subject. But when i went on it to look there were bunches of articles. The following article is taken from that sight and is talking about Vatican II not being infallible. I would like opinions on the following article!!! It is a bit disturbing to me, as well as the whole website! Anyone know more about it?
________________________________________________
Vatican II was Pastoral not infallible
Today, in the modern Church many, somehow believe that Vatican II was infallible. That all Catholics must treat this council as the council to end all councils. First we must consider that the Pope who called for and closed the council stated without question that it was " Pastoral" and not infallible. So the question arises why do liberals constantly say we must believe as an article of faith the documents from this council? The reason is of course that they are trying to misrepresent authentic Catholic teaching with this so called up to date version. Nothing can be infallible when it contradicts 2000 years of teaching. Yes it was a council, but NO IT WAS NOT INFALLIBLE. Lets see the first example of how the Pope who called for the council treated its authority:
The salient point of this council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all. For this a council was not necessary. [...] The substance of the ancient doctrine of the Deposit of Faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character. (Opening Address, October 11, 1962; Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 715)
So we see Pope John XXIII did not intend this council to be infallible. After all who could read "Guadium et Spes" with all the talk of religious liberties and not see this is counter to Ven. Pope Pius IX Syllabus of Errors? As a matter of fact, Cardinal Ratzinger the present Prefect of the Congregation of Fatih wrote that this is to reject the what the Church already had condemned
If it is desirable to offer a diagnosis of the text [Gaudium et Spes] as a whole, we might say that (in conjunction with the texts on religious liberty and world religions) it is a revision of the Syllabus of Pius IX, a kind of countersyllabus. [...] Let us be content to say that the text serves as a countersyllabus and, as such, represents, on the part of the Church, an attempt at an official reconciliation with the new era inaugurated in 1789. (Principles of Catholic Theology, 1987, pp. 381-2, Ignatius Press 1987)
How could a catholic in good conscience accept a writing as infallible when it not only has never been universally accepted, but has actually been rejected??
The Theological Commission of the Council made a declaration, a nota previa (preliminary note), concerning the theological note of Vatican II on March 6, 1964; Pope Paul VI had it read, by the councils General Secretary, Pericle Cardinal Felici, who was the Prefect of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office, to the council participants on November 16 of that year, to assure them that it was not an infallible council, before they gave their approval to the first conciliar text, that on the Church, called Lumen Gentium. The declaration was published as an addenda to that text. It says that as the council was intended to be pastoral, it should not be understood to be infallibly defining any matter unless it openly says so (which it never did):
In view of the conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present Council, this sacred Synod defines matters of faith or morals as binding on the Church only when the Synod itself openly declares so. (Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, p. 98)
Paul VI also stated that Vatican II was not infallible when he concluded it, as follows:
Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. [...] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man's conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is. (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 58; http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6tolast.htm)
Paul VI also stated a year later:
" There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification , the council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church's infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council , it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner and dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."
General Audience , December 1, 1966 published in L'Oservatore Romano 1/21/1966
Paul VI confirmed again in 1975 that Vatican II was pastoral and not infallible dogmatic council:
" Differing from other councils , this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral."
General audience August 6, 1975.
Our Holy Father has stated:
" Pope John conceived the council as eminently pastoral event." ( Angelus 10/27/85 )
Cardinal Ratzinger stated:
" Certainly there is a mentality of narrow views that isolates Vatican II and which provoked this opposition. There are many accounts of it , which give the impression that from Vatican II onward ,
everything has changed , and what preceded it has no value or, at best , has value in the light of Vatican II..... The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level , as merely a pastoral council."
( Address to the Chilean Episcopal Conference , II Sabato 30/7 5/8/1988
Pope Paul VI stated:
" The church finds herself in an hour of anxiety, a disturbed period of self-criticism , or what would even be better called self-destruction. It is an interior upheaval , acute, and complicated, which nobody expected after the Council. It is almost as if the Church were attacking itself . We looked forward to a flowing , a serene expansion of conceptions which matured in the sessions of the Council. But one must notice above all the sorrowful aspect. It is as if the church were destroying herself."
( Address to the Lombard Seminary 12/7/1968 )
Pope Paul VI later stated:
" We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God."
And later he stated:
" The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to the summit. Apostasy , the loss of faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels of the Church."
( Address on the sixtieth Anniversary of the Fatima Apparitions. 10/13/1977 )
So we see that the Church has NEVER declared Vatican II infallible and any teaching coming from this Council must be weighed against the traditional teaching of the Church. We also note that the the Pope who closed the Council realizes the loss of faith and Apostasy from this Council, even to the leaders of the Church. So no Catholic should ever be intimidated to believe he must treat this Council as an infallible one. No Catholic can be made to believe this councils teachings when they contradict 2000 years of teaching from Holy Mother the Church. The fruits of this Council are obvious and were obvious to Pope Paul VI. "The smoke of Satan has entered the Church."
