Greetings debiwebi,
I have noticed that there seems to be a lot of balderdash going on between radical traditionalists and modernists Catholics on the debate about Vatican II. As such, I being still on my way to join the Church and also on my infancy when it comes to my knowledge of Catholicism, decided to read the Council in its own light to see what exactly it said and then from there, to judge both point of views in light of the council itself and not the council in light of the point of views of radical traditionalist and liberal modernists.
Now, taking the words of the Second Vatican Council by themselves, it seems obvious that the council does bear the mark of infallibility and that it is also binding on all Catholics.
I extracted several paragraphs from some of the documents:
Lumen Gentium:
Paragraph 25:
Bishops who teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff are to be revered by all as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind. This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the documents in question, or by the frequency with which a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.
Note: This document is called Dogmatic Constitution of The Church, so its infallibility is obvious just by the title itself.
Unitatis Redintegratio
Paragraph 24:
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Dei Verbum
Paragraph 25:
The entire text and all the individual elements which have been set forth in this Constitution have pleased the Fathers. And by the Apostolic power conferred on us by Christ, we, together with the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and enact them; and we order that what has been thus enacted in Council be promulgated, to the glory of God.
Orientalium Ecclesiarum
Paragraph 30:
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And we, by the apostolic authority given us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Nostra Aetate
Last Paragraph:
The entire text and all the individual elements which have been set forth in this Declaration have pleased the Fathers. And by the Apostolic power conferred on us by Christ, we, together with the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and enact them; and we order that what has been thus enacted in Council be promulgated, to the glory of God.
Pope Paul VIs Closing Speech:
At last all which regards the holy ecumenical council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and all the constitutions, decrees, declarations and votes have been approved by the deliberation of the synod and promulgated by us. Therefore we decided to close for all intents and purposes, with our apostolic authority, this same ecumenical council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death.
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men. We have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, all efforts contrary to these things by whomever or whatever authority, knowingly or in ignorance be invalid and worthless from now on.
Now, there is indeed a lot of controversy going on today and much if not all of it is blamed on the council itself. But it seems that while The Church is indeed more open to renewal and revision, like for example on The Sacred Liturgy, she did not advance the abuses that go on today in the NO Mass. It would seem that the current problem is not with the council but with people abusing the openness and humility with which the Church has expressed herself in this council.
Many are indeed pushing things in the spirit of Vatican II which are harmful to The Church, They are not unlike everyone who take advantage of whatever chance is given to them and abuse all opportunity and liberty. This is what seems to be happening today, the Church has allowed her children to play freely, but within the restrictions set forth by her, the children however have crossed their limits.
As far as contradictions go, there are several parts of the council, which would seem to contradict infallible dogmas, like No Salvation Outside The Church. For example:
Lumen Gentium
Paragraph 16:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciencethose too many achieve eternal salvation.[19] Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.
But The Church does sets forth its dogma of its necessity for salvation on the same document:
Paragraph 14:
This holy Council first of all turns its attention to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body, which is the Church.
So, a case can be made that, just like in the times of the Old Testament in which only Israel was included in the plan of salvation and then in the New Testament Israel grows to include not only the Jews but also the Gentiles. So too the plan of salvation may include those mentioned above who may achieve salvation by Gods divine mercy.
There are also other aspects when it comes to the Liturgy, specially the Mass in which the Church during this council granted a certain liberty while still staying true to its Tradition and dogmas. That people have abused and go actually contrary to what is set forth in this council is the problem, not the council itself.
Another thing is that in documents like Dignitatis Humanae, would seem to put man on the same level as God with its constant mention of human dignity and rights. Also with its profession on mans freedom of conscience specially on religious matters. But on closer examination and when seen in light of the entire Council and also in light of the tradition of The Church, it becomes more clear and also it is found to be in perfect harmony with the teaching of The Church.
You are right when you say that a distinction must be made between the council itself and the abuses that are being made in spite of what the council sets forth. In any case sorry if I seemed to be attacking you or anything of the sort, it was not my intention to do so
Also I think that this post might help settle the question for those who are still confused on wether or not Vatican II is infallible..it is.
Have a good one and God Bless,
Asimis
I have noticed that there seems to be a lot of balderdash going on between radical traditionalists and modernists Catholics on the debate about Vatican II. As such, I being still on my way to join the Church and also on my infancy when it comes to my knowledge of Catholicism, decided to read the Council in its own light to see what exactly it said and then from there, to judge both point of views in light of the council itself and not the council in light of the point of views of radical traditionalist and liberal modernists.
Now, taking the words of the Second Vatican Council by themselves, it seems obvious that the council does bear the mark of infallibility and that it is also binding on all Catholics.
I extracted several paragraphs from some of the documents:
Lumen Gentium:
Paragraph 25:
Bishops who teach in communion with the Roman Pontiff are to be revered by all as witnesses of divine and Catholic truth; the faithful, for their part, are obliged to submit to their bishops' decision, made in the name of Christ, in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a ready and respectful allegiance of mind. This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the documents in question, or by the frequency with which a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.
Note: This document is called Dogmatic Constitution of The Church, so its infallibility is obvious just by the title itself.
Unitatis Redintegratio
Paragraph 24:
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Dei Verbum
Paragraph 25:
The entire text and all the individual elements which have been set forth in this Constitution have pleased the Fathers. And by the Apostolic power conferred on us by Christ, we, together with the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and enact them; and we order that what has been thus enacted in Council be promulgated, to the glory of God.
Orientalium Ecclesiarum
Paragraph 30:
Each and all these matters which are set forth in this decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And we, by the apostolic authority given us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God.
Nostra Aetate
Last Paragraph:
The entire text and all the individual elements which have been set forth in this Declaration have pleased the Fathers. And by the Apostolic power conferred on us by Christ, we, together with the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and enact them; and we order that what has been thus enacted in Council be promulgated, to the glory of God.
Pope Paul VIs Closing Speech:
At last all which regards the holy ecumenical council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and all the constitutions, decrees, declarations and votes have been approved by the deliberation of the synod and promulgated by us. Therefore we decided to close for all intents and purposes, with our apostolic authority, this same ecumenical council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death.
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men. We have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, all efforts contrary to these things by whomever or whatever authority, knowingly or in ignorance be invalid and worthless from now on.
Now, there is indeed a lot of controversy going on today and much if not all of it is blamed on the council itself. But it seems that while The Church is indeed more open to renewal and revision, like for example on The Sacred Liturgy, she did not advance the abuses that go on today in the NO Mass. It would seem that the current problem is not with the council but with people abusing the openness and humility with which the Church has expressed herself in this council.
Many are indeed pushing things in the spirit of Vatican II which are harmful to The Church, They are not unlike everyone who take advantage of whatever chance is given to them and abuse all opportunity and liberty. This is what seems to be happening today, the Church has allowed her children to play freely, but within the restrictions set forth by her, the children however have crossed their limits.
As far as contradictions go, there are several parts of the council, which would seem to contradict infallible dogmas, like No Salvation Outside The Church. For example:
Lumen Gentium
Paragraph 16:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:25-28), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4). Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciencethose too many achieve eternal salvation.[19] Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life.
But The Church does sets forth its dogma of its necessity for salvation on the same document:
Paragraph 14:
This holy Council first of all turns its attention to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself on scripture and tradition, it teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body, which is the Church.
So, a case can be made that, just like in the times of the Old Testament in which only Israel was included in the plan of salvation and then in the New Testament Israel grows to include not only the Jews but also the Gentiles. So too the plan of salvation may include those mentioned above who may achieve salvation by Gods divine mercy.
There are also other aspects when it comes to the Liturgy, specially the Mass in which the Church during this council granted a certain liberty while still staying true to its Tradition and dogmas. That people have abused and go actually contrary to what is set forth in this council is the problem, not the council itself.
Another thing is that in documents like Dignitatis Humanae, would seem to put man on the same level as God with its constant mention of human dignity and rights. Also with its profession on mans freedom of conscience specially on religious matters. But on closer examination and when seen in light of the entire Council and also in light of the tradition of The Church, it becomes more clear and also it is found to be in perfect harmony with the teaching of The Church.
You are right when you say that a distinction must be made between the council itself and the abuses that are being made in spite of what the council sets forth. In any case sorry if I seemed to be attacking you or anything of the sort, it was not my intention to do so
Also I think that this post might help settle the question for those who are still confused on wether or not Vatican II is infallible..it is.
Have a good one and God Bless,
Asimis
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