vain repetitions

[Xeno.of.athens]

Liturgical prayers embody the collective devotion of the community and the personal supplications of each individual within it. While they carry the personal intentions of each community member, these prayers are also timeless, echoing through the years.

In case you missed it, I have provided an answer to a similar question in a previous reply which is shown above.

It is considered a pattern prayer, a teaching type prayer that Jesus gave us. All the things listed in it would be things/examples that we can ask/request The Father about.

While it may sound good reciting it, it is not personal. When I talk/pray to The LORD, it is from my heart and personal to my particular situation.

 

[ViaCrucis]

While it may sound good reciting it, it is not personal.

When I pray it, it very much is personal.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

In case you missed it, I have provided an answer to a similar question in a previous reply which is shown above.

Well your statement sounded good and all,.....

But it has no heart.

When I talk with GOD, I talk with Him as a person, and He talks back to me the same way. I share my thoughts and feelings about a particular situation and such, and He has done the same.

I don't limit my prayer life and Christian walk to a religious exercise. I don't like religious type things, and neither does He.

 

[ARBITER01]

When I pray it, it very much is personal.

-CryptoLutheran

Give me an example of it being personal.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well your statement sounded good and all,.....

But it has no heart.

When I talk with GOD, I talk with Him as a person, and He talks back to me the same way. I share my thoughts and feelings about a particular situation and such, and He has done the same.

I don't limit my prayer life and Christian walk to a religious exercise. I don't like religious type things, and neither does He.

Brother, when I recite the Lord's Prayer, it becomes a personal conversation with God, where He listens and responds. The thoughts and emotions I have about particular situations are the intentions I present to the Lord in His words, and He hears His Son's voice in me. My prayer life is richer than the words in the liturgy when read without faith but when read in loving trust to my heavenly Father they are not mere religious rituals.

 

[ARBITER01]

Brother, when I recite the Lord's Prayer, it becomes a personal conversation with God, where He listens and responds. The thoughts and emotions I have about particular situations are the intentions I present to the Lord in His words, and He hears His Son's voice in me. My prayer life is richer than the words in the liturgy when read without faith but when read in loving trust to my heavenly Father they are not mere religious rituals.

That sounds good and all, but I don't believe you.

Give me an example of it being personal.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That sounds good and all, but I don't believe you.

Give me an example of it being personal.

For instance, I am praying for you as I write this. You were also in my thoughts when I recited the Lord's Prayer just now. However, if you wish to glimpse into my soul, to have a window into it, so to speak, I cannot grant that to you, nor do I believe that God will grant it either.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Give me an example of it being personal.

You want me to offer an example of how something is personal? Okay. Well, when I join together with the entire Body of Jesus Christ in saying the prayer He taught us, I am reminded that I am God's child in Christ, and that my good and loving Father already knows my needs and wants what is best. He is my Father, He is our Father, in Christ; and I have the privilege to know Him as such. I have the privilege to come before Him, to call Him Father, and He in turn changes me, that I might say "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"--not my will, not our will, not the kingdom, power, and glory of men and human ambition. But the kingdom and will of our good and loving Abba who is in heaven, whom we know in Christ Jesus our Lord. And, to ask Him for forgiveness even as I seek to forgive others; and to provide for me with every good provision--"give me this day our supersubstantial bread", that I might be sustained not only for the needs of my body, but that my soul be fed with the goodness of His word, in the Sacraments, and with every blessing He so richly blesses us in Christ.

I get to call Him Father. What do you mean offer an example of it being personal?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

What do you mean offer an example of it being personal?

-CryptoLutheran

I mean, what sort of communication with The Father do you have?

How is what you are doing by reciting a set pattern or words any sort of back and forth communication with GOD? Prayer is a connection, not a series of thoughts that you have about a subject or someone. It can be a series of spoken requests to Him, or it can as simple as just a "good morning Lord!" when you wake up, and a sharing of that time with Him before you do anything else.

We are connected inside to the throne of GOD, He knows all of our needs and expects us to petition Him for them, not think just think about them while we recite a set pattern of words.

We are to be instant in prayer, meaning we are to have various moments throughout each day where we a led by The Holy Spirit to get into prayer. There could be situations going to happen that GOD needs our prayers in that very moment to stop the outcome of a situation that satan is working against. The Lord has me in prayer like this about 50 times a day and night. I'm certainly not going to keep using a pattern prayer each time when I can address the need directly with Him.

I have the advantage of a Spiritual prayer language that I can operate at any point that most people here have no clue about, but prayer has many different levels associated with it, and communicating with The Father directly in human languages is just as viable, but you would miss out on the predictive aspects associated with that higher form of prayer, as well as the help provided to other people you don't know about that GOD does.

Again, I'm not going to believe people saying that reciting the Lord's prayer is personal with GOD when there is no back and forth communication with Him. I'm not buying it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm not going to believe people saying that reciting the Lord's prayer is personal with GOD when there is no back and forth communication with Him. I'm not buying it.

I think you've told the truth; you do not believe it.

 

[dzheremi]

Again, I'm not going to believe people saying that reciting the Lord's prayer is personal with GOD when there is no back and forth communication with Him. I'm not buying it.

We don't pray it so that you'll believe it. We pray it because we do.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I mean, what sort of communication with The Father do you have?

Faith. It's called faith. He speaks to me through His word, I hear Him as He speaks to me. When I read or hear the Scriptures read, when His Law and Gospel are preached, in the Holy Supper where I receive the flesh and blood of the Savior, as I inhabit, living in the reality of my baptism by which God washed me clean, united me to His Son, gave me the Holy Spirit, declared my sins forgiven, declared me righteous on Christ's account. In every moment of every day as God, in the abundant richness of His grace, keeping me, holding me, loving me, declaring me His child, declaring me forgiven, declaring me just, giving me grace upon grace upon grace. As I passively receive, through faith, all which God says, does, and gives. And I, in turn, respond, giving thanks in prayer, whether in words or in "groanings too deep for words", confessing my sins and humbly submitting myself to Him in repentance, asking Him for His continued and daily mercy which He promises is mine ("If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"). I pray, I pray the prayers of the Church, I pray spontaneous prayers, I pray silently and without words trusting solely in the Holy Spirit to carry my silent groanings before the Throne as still sweet smelling incense. I join together in singing the hymns of the Church, and reciting the Psalms, and in meditating upon the Scriptures; in the company of the Faithful in the Holy Liturgy, when I am alone and sing, or remember His word, or think upon His goodness and offer thanks to Him. And as I seek Him and His will and His kingdom--not by my strength or power, but by the strength of His grace and by the comfort and aid of the Holy Spirit--I seek and ask Him to humble me, to give me the strength to walk and continually put to death the lusts of my flesh and continually put to death this old Adam and to give life to the new man created anew in Christ and who lives in Christ. To walk in humble obedience to His commandments, to suffer for His name, to endure, to persevere, to cling to Christ in faith even as Christ clings to me.

I don't know anything else other than this: That God has given Himself to me, and for me, and I am His forever because He has spoken His name over me in my baptism. That in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit I am the property of God. I hear Him where He speaks in His holy and precious word; the Spirit holds me and keeps me and is the One who comforts me in my weakness and continually draws my gaze toward Christ, in faith, so that I am not left helpless and hopeless--but with One who helps and One who gives me hope. He speaks and I answer; He calls and bids me come, and by His grace and Spirit I come, humbly, as a wretched beggar, receiving the entirety of Jesus Christ in faith. And He calls me son, and I call Him Father; for I am in Christ, and Christ is mine as I am His; the Spirit is in me, and in this I live, and hope, and love. That in living or dying I shall be found the crucified disciple of Jesus Christ. And I shall be raised up on the Last Day.

Again, I'm not going to believe people saying that reciting the Lord's prayer is personal with GOD when there is no back and forth communication with Him. I'm not buying it.

Whether you are "buying it" or not is irrelevant. Two thousand years of Christianity is more significant than what a single individual happens to feel about what I and all other Christians have with our dear and precious Savior.

I eat and drink Jesus Christ. His flesh and blood literally enter my mouth and touch my lips. I don't know how to have a more intimate and personal relationship with the Almighty than that. I eat and drink God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

I don't know how to have a more intimate and personal relationship with the Almighty than that.

I believe you,... and I'll take a stab at this,... most likely you won't.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe you,... and I'll take a stab at this,... most likely you won't.

"Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good!
Blessed is the one who takes refuge in Him!
Oh, fear the Lord, you His saints, for those who fear Him lack nothing!
The young lions suffer want and they hunger;
but those who seek the Lord are lacking in nothing good."
-Psalm 34:8-10

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

I think you've told the truth; you do not believe it.

I question your actions and some of the others in this thread.

My contention continually was whether you had a relationship with The Father or not in your prayer endeavors. By relationship, I mean that you speak to Him and He answers you back in a audible voice, and you hold a conversation at times with Him.

If you and others don't have that, then what are you doing?

 

[dzheremi]

If you and others don't have that, then what are you doing?

Not likely suffering from prelest...?

 

[ViaCrucis]

By relationship, I mean that you speak to Him and He answers you back in a audible voice,

And this audible voice you hear, you think it's God? That's dangerous. Get away from that, run. That isn't God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ARBITER01]

And this audible voice you hear, you think it's God? That's dangerous. Get away from that, run. That isn't God.

-CryptoLutheran

Not likely suffering from prelest...?

What,.... you don't believe that GOD can speak to you??

He spoke to the apostles,.... has He changed?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What,.... you don't believe that GOD can speak to you??

He spoke to the apostles,.... has He changed?

At no point did God the Father audibly speak to any of the apostles. Not a single example of that in the entire New Testament. At no point did the apostles claim they had little chit-chats with God where they audibly heard His voice.

God can do anything He likes, even sound a booming voice from the heavens as He did when the Lord Jesus was in the Jordan River.

But you're talking about something that not only doesn't exist in the New Testament, but which directly contradicts the entire New Testament's way of talking about how we know and relate to God.

So I suppose there's two possibilities here.

1) You have such a unique and profound direct experience of God that not even the Apostles of Jesus Christ ever had, and arguably not even Moses had when he communed with God on Mt. Horeb.

Or

2) It's not God.

The first possibility seems unlikely. To borrow a recently used expression in this thread, I'm not buying it. So the second seems most likely.

Now what it could be is open to a lot of possibilities. If there really is an audible voice that you are really, actually hearing. Well that's a very serious cause for alarm. I'd ask you what this voice thinks if you were to ask it about, say, making the sign of the cross, or praying the Lord's Prayer; but I can't in good conscience tell you to engage with, interact with, or mess around with something impersonating God. The only safe and right advice I can give is to stop contact, immediately get on your knees and pray--ignoring any voices, immediately get your nose and eyes into the Scriptures, and then talk with your pastor at the first available time. If your pastor does not find this whole thing alarming, then you need a new pastor, and if this sort of thing is accepted and even encouraged in your current church, find a new church immediately.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dzheremi]

For myself, the experiences of our fathers and mothers of the desert are more evidence than I could ever need to be convinced not to mess around with spirits presenting themselves as God (or angels, as was often the case), even while some of those same people also did have genuine experiences of walking and talking with Christ (e.g., St. Bishoy).

The difference between the true and the false experiences follows in the crowning humility of St. Anthony and his disciples, whereas those who had false experiences were convinced by the apparitions themselves to trust whatever they were told. Thus we developed a very strong principle, known even to laypeople like me, that it is better to reject an angel unaware than to accept a demon into one's cell by being open to flattery, or a feeling that one has advanced so far spiritually that such apparitions are or should be considered 'normal' and therefore safe to trust.