Vaccine / religious belief correlation

[lasthero]

I am sure there are plenty of opinions I could formulate against you about what I believe you should do that you're not doing.
But I'm a live and let live kind of person.
Your personal opinion about herbs and essential oils is just that- your opinion.
What exactly do you think people did for so long before modern medicine? When someone was cut, did they not go seek out plantain leaves (not the fruit, the plant) to make a paste out of to withdraw the bacteria? When someone had a headache did they not steep feverfew root into a tea to drink? Herbs and essential oils are nothing more than plants, which were given to us BY GOD to use for medicine.
Again- we are moving off topic. So I could say that my use of herbs and essential oils IS driven by my religion, since I trust God a heck of a lot more than a scientist in a lab putting synthetic chemicals into a vial together to see what happens.

Just 100 years ago, the life expectancy was 31. Now it's around 60.

Why do you think that is?

 

[riona]

Just 100 years ago, the life expectancy was 31. Now it's around 60.

Why do you think that is?

I have no doubt there are a multitude of modern conveniences that have allowed us to extend our lifespan. Indoor plumbing, air conditioning, and automobiles to name a few.
None of which have anything to do with whether or not religion effects my decision toward vaccination.

 

[BensonInABox]

I am sure there are plenty of opinions I could formulate against you about what I believe you should do that you're not doing.
But I'm a live and let live kind of person.
Your personal opinion about herbs and essential oils is just that- your opinion.

It is my opinion, but it's also the one modern evidence based medicine agrees with. Most herbal remedies are nothing more than snake oil. Same with the essential oils.

What exactly do you think people did for so long before modern medicine?

Die much younger.

When someone was cut, did they not go seek out plantain leaves (not the fruit, the plant) to make a paste out of to withdraw the bacteria? When someone had a headache did they not steep feverfew root into a tea to drink?

Yeah. That's why I included the phrase "by and large." Does the fact that they're "natural" have any bearing on their efficacy compared to modern alternatives? And keep in mind, they're also full of chemicals and most of them are useless.

Herbs and essential oils are nothing more than plants, which were given to us BY GOD to use for medicine. Again- we are moving off topic. So I could say that my use of herbs and essential oils IS driven by my religion, since I trust God a heck of a lot more than a scientist in a lab putting synthetic chemicals into a vial together to see what happens.

I work in medicine. No offense, but this characterization is ridiculous. This distrust of science in general and medical science in particular is one of my pet peeves. More people would die if not for the effectiveness of modern evidence based medicine. Herbal medicine isn't going to help the child with leukemia in our HEMOC unit. They'll need chemotherapy. It's not going to fix that newborn's failing heart valve in our CVICU. They'll need it fixed surgically and will likely need a cocktail of drugs for the rest of his or her life. It's not going to help the kid with the failing respiratory system in our PICU. They'll need to be put on a vent.

We'd still be dealing with Polio, Smallpox and other diseases that could and did kill many people before vaccination.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I'm curious to know if there is any correlation between ones religious beliefs and ones thoughts of vaccine efficacy / safety. I would therefore be most interested to see everybody's responses to this questions.

1. What is your religious position
2. Have you / would you give your child a full childhood vaccination panel.

1. Christian (Episcopalian)
2. ABSOLUTELY.

I'm not a parent yet, but I'm an ardent advocate of vaccination. Unless there is a legitimate health reason to not vaccinate my future children, I will have them immunized. I had severe complications from chicken pox after I contracted it as a fragile, premature baby from my brother's unvaccinated playmate, and subsequently developed significant health problems that compromised my immune system. I've already had pertussis and shingles, and I'm only 17. I just submitted all my forms to the college I'll begin in the fall with proof of my vaccinations being current. It's a requirement for enrollment unless the student has substantiated medical or religious reasons for an exemption. I also recently received other recommended vaccinations for travel to Africa later this summer.

 

[Saricharity]

I'm a Christian.

I'm still reading and researching vaccines. I don't have children yet.
At this point, I would selectively vax and not even think of it until age two or older.
Our vaccine schedule is different than the US and not mandatory. I do not need to be vaxed to attend college either.

 

[MiniEmu]

I did not receive a number of vaccines as a child, because of allergies related to the way they were developed way back then.

As a Christian if I had a child then I would vaccinate them, providing the manner in which they were developed did not mean there was a real risk of anaphylactic shock.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I'm a Christian.

I'm still reading and researching vaccines. I don't have children yet.
At this point, I would selectively vax and not even think of it until age two or older.
Our vaccine schedule is different than the US and not mandatory. I do not need to be vaxed to attend college either.

So you have decided to go?! *Explodes with joy* Whew. HGH, you had me worried there for a while.

Hypothetically, if your future child's pediatrician strongly advised you to have him or her vaccinated before the age of two, as recommended by the Canadian Pediatric Society and even Dr. Sears' Alternative Schedule, would you? When you state that you'd "selectively vax," what exactly does that mean?

Btw. There isn't a national law in the United States mandating vaccines either, though all fifty states do have legislation requiring proof of specified vaccines for students to enroll at public schools (at minimum) unless there is a documented medical reason for an exemption. I believe a few provinces in Canada, including Ontario, also require proof of immunization for children and teens aged 4 through 17 to attend their public schools, but also allow for certain exemptions. Currently twenty states do additionally allow for philosophical exemptions, though some are taking measures to end this policy. On Tuesday California lawmakers approved SB 277, a bill eliminating the personal and religious exemptions for vaccines and refusing enrollment in public or private school to any child who does not have the mandated immunizations. This was a clearing of the last legislative obstacle because it (likely) becomes law.

 

[Saricharity]

So you have decided to go?! *Explodes with joy* Whew. HGH, you had me worried there for a while.

Hypothetically, if your future child's pediatrician strongly advised you to have him or her vaccinated before the age of two, as recommended by the Canadian Pediatric Society and even Dr. Sears' Alternative Schedule, would you? When you state that you'd "selectively vax," what exactly does that mean?

Btw. There isn't a national law in the United States mandating vaccines either, though all fifty states do have legislation requiring proof of specified vaccines for students to enroll at public schools (at minimum) unless there is a documented medical reason for an exemption. I believe a few provinces in Canada, including Ontario, also require proof of immunization for children and teens aged 4 through 17 to attend their public schools, but also allow for certain exemptions. Currently twenty states do additionally allow for philosophical exemptions, though some are taking measures to end this policy. On Tuesday California lawmakers approved SB 277, a bill eliminating the personal and religious exemptions for vaccines and refusing enrollment in public or private school to any child who does not have the mandated immunizations. This was a clearing of the last legislative obstacle because it (likely) becomes law.

Ha Still undecided, Lovely

 

[DogmaHunter]

Get back to me if you want to resume discussing the issues.

Perhaps you didn't notice that I wrote more then just that silly quote in that post...

 

[DogmaHunter]

Your personal opinion about herbs and essential oils is just that- your opinion.

No, not really.

What exactly do you think people did for so long before modern medicine?

Not live past 35... And that's if they were lucky. Most died before 30.

When someone was cut, did they not go seek out plantain leaves (not the fruit, the plant) to make a paste out of to withdraw the bacteria?

And did they not die afterwards from an infection to that wound?

When someone had a headache did they not steep feverfew root into a tea to drink?

Wich wouldn't shrink that brain tumor.

Herbs and essential oils are nothing more than plants, which were given to us BY GOD to use for medicine.

Err... plants evolved.

Again- we are moving off topic. So I could say that my use of herbs and essential oils IS driven by my religion, since I trust God a heck of a lot more than a scientist in a lab putting synthetic chemicals into a vial together to see what happens.

"God's way" was tried and the life expectancy was around 30-35 and infant mortality was through the roof.

The "scientist in the lab" way, extended life expectancy to 80-85 and reduced infant mortality to an all-time low.

You can put your blind faith where you want it, but the track record speaks for itself.

 

[Blue Wren]

1. Christian.
2. Of course, yes, I will, when I have children.

I have asked on this forum, before, about if there is a correlation, in the US, between fundamentalism & anti-vaccination / "selective vaxxer", as I did notice a link, from threads on here, earlier this year. The people, who are Young Earth Creationists / fundamentalists, they seem to have more attitudes / suspicion, of science, global warming denial, & vaccines. If you search for threads, from earlier this year, about vaccines, you can see this, from posts people wrote, and then looking at their profiles. This is not something, I have so much experience with, outside of this forum, as we don't really have so many creationists, or science denial, in Sweden, and most Swedes, we see immunisation, as a civic duty. We have some "selective vaxxers / anti-vaxxers" but most, do support immunisation, and it's compulsory, for school. We do not permit schooling at home, so it is not possible, to skip out on vaccines, that way.

I had read about this creationist textbook writer, for home school students, named Dr Jay Wile, who was discussed, on this forum. I read his site. His books, they have a lot of rubbish about global warming, evolution & other things with science, but, he is at least knowledgeable, about vaccines. You can see, if you look at the blogs he wrote about vaccines, comments from home school parents / creationists, some arguing with him. One lady said she was vaccinated her children, supports it fully, but was the only one in her homeschool group not "educated" on the dangers of it. He also included letters, from homeschooling parents, who hadn't vaccinated, but then regretted that decision, as their children became ill.

I do think that he, and others like him, they help to create the problem, as he spends so much time, in his textbooks, claiming that "mainstream" science is not reliable.

 

[joshua 1 9]

But I'm pretty sure that certain vaccinations are required by law.

They are required by the school nurse unless you can get your physician to over ride her.

 

[Blue Wren]

You're hoping your preconceived idea will be confirmed, in other words. But how are you going to identify anyone as a "fundamentalist?"

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...to-be-vaccinated.7864744/page-9#post-67059483
This person, is no longer a member, I don't think, so that's why, I'm citing his posts. His signature had been claiming, that all vaccines contain aborted babies. There are many more posts, by him, in that thread, and others, about vaccines. He is a fundamentalist, I believe.

This thread, especially in the last pages, has several posts, by people I think, would be described, as fundamentalists. The thread, it had to be closed, because of false medical advice, against vaccinations, and such. Several pages of the thread, were deleted, but you can still get an idea. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/herd-immunity.7863421/

It's really, not so out-there, to ask, about a connection, between fundamentalists, and anti-vaccines, especially since many, are science denialists. Most people I've seen here, who oppose vaccines, they also, don't "believe" in evolution, global warming, ect, ect. They are not the only ones, who are anti-immunisation, of course, no. But, I think, there is a connection, yes.

 

[Blue Wren]

Unfortunately you are very correct. :-/ there's not much left in our world that hasn't been effected by chemicals.
I cannot control many things that my kids and I are exposed to, however I do what I can to limit that exposure. I use a Berkey water filter and non-flourinated toothpaste, buy organic foods for those I don't grow myself, I read labels consistently, use natural cleaners and soaps, and refuse vaccinations and most modern medications by utilizing herbs and essential oils instead
.
To stay on topic, none of these choices have been made based on my religious beliefs. I don't ask God what products to buy (although I bet it wouldn't hurt). I actually like to consider what was done in the pioneer days when I make a lot of my day to day decisions.

Do you know how much more of the very chemicals, anti-vaxxers / selective vaxxers, often cite, whilst talking about how "unnatural" vaccines are, is in breast-milk, than actually in vaccines? What do you think is in vaccines, that is not in food & water? Do you know the quantities, & how long each of the ingredients, stays in the body?

Do you accept evolution?
Do you accept global warming?

 

[Albion]

1. Christian.
2. Of course, yes, I will, when I have children.

I have asked on this forum, before, about if there is a correlation, in the US, between fundamentalism & anti-vaccination / "selective vaxxer", as I did notice a link, from threads on here, earlier this year. The people, who are Young Earth Creationists / fundamentalists, they seem to have more attitudes / suspicion, of science, global warming denial, & vaccines. If you search for threads, from earlier this year, about vaccines, you can see this, from posts people wrote, and then looking at their profiles. This is not something, I have so much experience with, outside of this forum.

Anyway, this tread didn't bear out that theory. On the contrary, I thought we revealed that it's more the fashionable over-age "hippie," pseudo-environmentalist, unconventional medicine, crowd that is more often in the forefront of the anti-vax cause.

 

[florida2]

What exactly do you think people did for so long before modern medicine? When someone was cut, did they not go seek out plantain leaves (not the fruit, the plant) to make a paste out of to withdraw the bacteria?
When someone had a headache did they not steep feverfew root into a tea to drink? Herbs and essential oils are nothing more than plants, which were given to us BY GOD to use for medicine.
Again- we are moving off topic. So I could say that my use of herbs and essential oils IS driven by my religion, since I trust God a heck of a lot more than a scientist in a lab putting synthetic chemicals into a vial together to see what happens.

Until the work of scientists in 19th century they didn't have a clue about bacteria. Thanks to the likes of Pasteur and Koch we know about bacteria and the exact medicine to vaccinate and to treat them. Thanks to Joseph Lister we learnt how to prevent infection.

Medicine had improved out of all recognition in the past 150 years thanks to amazing work done by scientists all over the world. Diseases that would kill thousands and thousands of people every year worldwide can be prevented and treated thanks to modern science. Your glorification of the pioneer days completely ignores the reality of medicine at the time which was pretty appalling.

 

[Albion]

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...to-be-vaccinated.7864744/page-9#post-67059483
This person, is no longer a member, I don't think, so that's why, I'm citing his posts. His signature had been claiming, that all vaccines contain aborted babies. There are many more posts, by him, in that thread, and others, about vaccines. He is a fundamentalist, I believe.

This thread, especially in the last pages, has several posts, by people I think, would be described, as fundamentalists. The thread, it had to be closed, because of false medical advice, against vaccinations, and such. Several pages of the thread, were deleted, but you can still get an idea. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/herd-immunity.7863421/

It's really, not so out-there, to ask, about a connection, between fundamentalists, and anti-vaccines, especially since many, are science denialists.

I don't think that anyone thought that the question couldn't or shouldn't be asked. I certainly didn't take that position. But one rose doesn't make a summer, and a handful of posters here who might be fundamentalists doesn't prove that it's mainly fundamentalists who are anti-vax. As this thread progressed, it became apparent that there was much more significant opposition to vaccinations from other kinds of people, motivated by quite different considerations..

 

[Blue Wren]

I don't think that anyone thought that the question couldn't or shouldn't be asked. I certainly didn't take that position. But one rose doesn't make a summer, and a handful of posters here who might be fundamentalists doesn't prove that it's mainly fundamentalists who are anti-vax. As this thread progressed, it became apparent that there was much more significant opposition to vaccinations from other kinds of people, motivated by quite different considerations..

I didn't say, that anyone stated it couldn't / shouldn't be asked, no. The OP was:

I'm curious to know if there is any correlation between ones religious beliefs and ones thoughts of vaccine efficacy / safety. I would therefore be most interested to see everybody's responses to this questions.

There is a correlation, yes. That has been shown, in this thread, and in other threads, on this forum, and other sites, also. Nobody said, it was only people with religious beliefs, who are responsible, for the anti-vaccination / selective vaxxer problem, no. Who on this thread, who has written negatively, about vaccines, or is a "selective vaxxer" isn't a Christian, or religious? I will read through, and see if I'm mistaken, but, I don't think I am.

We also know, there are other religious people, who give religious reasons, to not vaccinate. Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witness, ect. The Catholic Church, it has said, vaccines are for the common good. Still, some will cite, two abortions, from 50+ years ago, used for some vaccines, as reasons, to not use any vaccine, today. Many states, in America, allow for religious exemptions, though, some, are doing away with that.

Anyway, this tread didn't bear out that theory. On the contrary, I thought we revealed that it's more the fashionable over-age "hippie," pseudo-environmentalist, unconventional medicine, crowd that is more often in the forefront of the anti-vax cause.

It did bear out, yes, of course. We see that there are Christians, who have similar fallacies, as the "hippies" who believe in unconventional medicine, herbs, all organic, non-GMO, ect, ect. There are Christians here, who are also prone to the naturalistic fallacy, and in error, believe that vaccines are "unnatural." Christians who think, you shouldn't vaccinate, under the age of two, when of course, the majority of licensed doctors, would say, it's crucial to, irresponsible not to, unless, there is a medical reason. They think, breast milk, provides better immunity, when breast milk, often has higher quantities of the very ingredients, they say they don't want their children to have, and in higher doses. Mothers, who aren't immunised, they cannot pass on protection, through breast milk, of course. Still, Christian "hippies", push it, the same as non-Christian hippies do. Christians, who still are saying, there is a connection, between vaccines & autism, when, of course, there is not. Christians who think herbs, are from God, (and vaccines are not?), that they're more natural. Have you actually read, the posts in this thread, beyond the first page?

 

[Saricharity]

This doctor made an interesting video as to why some parents don't trust the current CDC schedule. He doesn't mention any religious affiliation. Just interesting facts to understand parental concerns.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

This doctor made an interesting video as to why some parents don't trust the current CDC schedule. He doesn't mention any religious affiliation. Just interesting facts to understand parental concerns.

The video is over an hour long. Could you please summarize it for us? Does he professionally mistrust the current CDC vaccine schedule and advocate an alternative one, or was he explaining why some parents don't trust it? Does he state that children shouldn't receive any vaccinations before the age of two, and then should only be selectively vaccinated? I Googled his name to try to find a condensed version of what he believes but the only hit regarding vaccines was from the Facebook page Vaccine Choice Canada. I am sort of leery of anything recommended from that page because of the melodramatic misrepresentations in the current top post.

Most doctors absolutely do understand parental concerns, but strive to address and alleviate them.

ETA: I'm in the car and watching part of the video now.

He immediately explains that he is fully vaccinated, and had all of his children fully vaccinated. Then he describes a conversation with the mother of a patient who told him she wouldn't give her son the MMR vaccine until he was older because of fear that it would cause him to develop autism. He explains to her how Wakefield's study in the Lancet has been resoundingly refuted, and he was stripped of his medical license, to which she replied that "you are wrong, and not only are you wrong, but Wakefield is a hero." He tells her about a professor at a conference he'd recently attended who'd said that prison alone was insufficient punishment for Wakefield. Still the woman was adamant. So then he decided that he should crawl down the rabbit hole to figure out why she was adamant that Wakefield was heroic. Oooohk.

I disagree with his assertions on the the Hepatitis B Vaccine, both the reasoning for it and the claim that the aluminum it contains is harmful.
http://shotofprevention.com/2010/05/06/why-infants-should-receive-the-hepatitis-b-vaccine-at-birth/
http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine...cine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum.html
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm

Okay. My signal is fading so I'm stopping now. Hopefully you can give a synopsis for the rest of the video and things improve beyond the 5 minute mark.