Using someone elses unsecured wireless.

[Domenico]

So, to the great glee of many in my household, one of our neighbours, who we only really have dealings with when we call the cops on them for having domestics in the street, have set up a wireless network, which seems to extend to my house. And they havent secured it. But now Im having a dillemma.

Is it stealing to use someone elses wireless network? Or is being dumb enough to set one up thats unsecured akin to leaving stuff in your front yard with a sign saying "help yourself"?

 

[Meshavrischika]

eh... I only consider it stealing if they're being charged for your usage... but then we pay for cable and my husband cannot get on to our wireless and so uses another wireless in the city (so in essence we're paying and using the same provider source, just not under our name)

 

[stan1980]

Yes, it is blatant theft. You'd be knowingly stealing their bandwidth. Some ISPs have download limitations per month, and it can also slow down their service.

I'm pretty sure you can get criminally charged for this as well.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I would say that it is unethical and amounts to stealing if you do not have thier consent but in most cases is not that big a deal.

I have an unsecured wireless network setup in my home that is accessable from the street and a little ways beyond. I would have no problem if someone were to connect to it and access the net or thier email so long as they were not doing anything illegal pointing back to my IP.

Sure if I was downloading a file at the time my download speed would drop a little but it is really no big deal. All of my computers are firewalled and passworded so if someone does gain access all they have is the net and if they want to set out thier in thier car or on the sidewalk and surf its fine with me.

Same goes for my neighbor, if they could get online with my wireless I would not really mind so long as they did not abuse it. Then that is just me some people may not be so understanding and could press charges if they wanted.

 

[OdwinOddball]

Well, lets change the parameters a bit and see if it becomes more clear.

Your next door neighbor subscribes to the local cable TV company.

Without their consent, your install a cable splitter on their line, and run a cable to your TV.

Would this be wrong?

 

[cantata]

Not okay. Their service might have a download cap that you're eating into.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Well, lets change the parameters a bit and see if it becomes more clear.

Your next door neighbor subscribes to the local cable TV company.

Without their consent, your install a cable splitter on their line, and run a cable to your TV.

Would this be wrong?

In the eyes of the cable company definitely yes. In the eyes of the law yes. To the person who subscribed to cable not so much provided they do not incur additional charges or degraded signal quality. It would result in a slightly higher cost for subscribers if a lot of people do this. Of course if you were tapping your neighbors cable the fair thing to do by them would be to split the bill with them and the right thing to do is have your own cable account.

 

[JadeTigress]

I guess I don't see a problem with it, because I've done it. While I was living in St. Louis, we had cable internet but not a router, so I couldn't use the internet on my laptop. But then I discovered that one of the neighbors had an unsecured network, so of course I happily used it.

Then the next day they put a password on it and I couldn't use it anymore. It made me sad. Then I bought a router.

 

[gengwall]

Is it stealing to use someone elses wireless network? Yes

Or is being dumb enough to set one up thats unsecured akin to leaving stuff in your front yard with a sign saying "help yourself"?
Double Yes

 

[trunks2k]

Yeah, it's stealing. But really I think it's so easy to put some sort of protection on your wireless internet, I often see an unsecured wireless internet connection as big sign that says "yes, I give you permission to use my internet connection"

 

[cantata]

Yeah, it's stealing. But really I think it's so easy to put some sort of protection on your wireless internet, I often see an unsecured wireless internet connection as big sign that says "yes, I give you permission to use my internet connection"

We can't assume that everyone understands how wireless networks work.

For all you know, these people had their wireless set up for them by a friend who doesn't really know what they're doing, and they don't even know that people could be abusing it. People's ignorance about the best way to protect their property is not a green light to steal whatever you want from them.

 

[Lockguy3000]

So, to the great glee of many in my household, one of our neighbours, who we only really have dealings with when we call the cops on them for having domestics in the street, have set up a wireless network, which seems to extend to my house. And they havent secured it. But now Im having a dillemma.

Is it stealing to use someone elses wireless network? Or is being dumb enough to set one up thats unsecured akin to leaving stuff in your front yard with a sign saying "help yourself"?

so, let's say you are dumb enough not to have high security, pick resistant locks on your doors, so I guess it's okay for people who know how to pick open standard duty locks to break into your home, because standard security locks are no security at all.

Now do you still think that using other people's network without their permission is not stealing

 

[stan1980]

Apparently 3 people in this country have been accused of unlawfully stealing wireless.

Here's an article that discusses the issue:

Is stealing wireless wrong?

By Finlo Rohrer
BBC News Magazine

A man has been arrested after being spotted allegedly sitting in a street with a laptop using someone else's unsecured wireless connection. Is it immoral to do this? So here's the thing.
You're walking down the street in Hypotheticalville and in front of you is a gentleman who, when he walks, spills seemingly endless torrents of golden coins on to the pavement behind him.
He seems unconcerned by this and you notice that if not picked up, these magic coins quickly evaporate. Is it moral for you to pick a few up?
It's the kind of tree-falls-in-the-forest whimsy that an undergraduate philosopher might mull over for a moment, but back in the real world a not entirely dissimilar debate is being played out.
The man arrested in a street in west London is at least the third person to be accused of breaching the law by taking internet service without permission.
The Communications Act 2003 says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offence".

"It is a bit like reading your book from the light coming out from someone's window "


Julian Baggini
Philosopher


There are also suggestions using somebody else's wireless could come under the Computer Misuse Act, usually used to combat hacking and electronic fraud.
But if it can be interpreted as illegal, can it be truly said to be immoral?
Heavy downloading might affect the unsecured person's speed of access or download limit, but a use like checking an e-mail is hardly likely to be noticed. Most "victims" will suffer no loss.
Philosopher Nick Bostrom, director of the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford University, says with technology moving rapidly, socially-accepted moral positions can be slow to solidify.


"I haven't thought about it. I'm not sure anybody has. It might be one of those areas where cultural norms haven't evolved or stabilised yet. It's so new it's not clear whether it's stealing or not. And sometimes the law trails public norms.
"If you steal a silver Mont Blanc pen it's theft but if it's an ordinary ballpoint pen or a pencil it is assumed you can take it.
"In the olden days people had norms about whether you were able to pick apples from someone else's tree. Perhaps it's OK if the branches hang over the road, but not from inside their garden. You have generally shared expectations."
In 2002 Matt Jones, the original designer of the BBC News website, devised "warchalking" with a group of friends. These chalk symbols on walls and pavements showed those in the know where free wireless internet was.
Freeloaders v borrowers
Among the sternest critics of the concept was Nokia, who months later said: "This is theft, plain and simple."
But they were worried about users congregating near an open network and slowing it down, as much as by the ethical considerations. For one person checking an e-mail on a hardly-stretched home connection, the issue might seem different.
Philosopher Julian Baggini says he can't see what all the fuss is about.
"I'm pro the stealers on this one. If you are doing it systematically to avoid chipping in your bit you are a freeloader and that's immoral.

"Are they going to prosecute someone who stands outside a bakery warming their hands? "


Barry Fox
Technology writer


"But casual and occasional use while travelling is a bit like reading your book from the light coming out from someone's window. It's like eating someone's leftovers."
And he's happy to practise what he preaches.
"I've done it and I don't put a password on my own connection. For all I know that's what someone's doing now.
"But the fact that something is morally acceptable doesn't change the fact of its illegality. The rule of law is an important factor."
Freeloading is unacceptable, but the whole notion of a crackdown on the theft of something that won't be missed shows up an increasingly possessive society.
ISP victims
"We are really obsessed with things being ours or mine. But there are things that can be shared."
An internet service provider (ISP) might argue it is the victim of wireless theft. If people could use other people's wireless, why buy their own?
The idea of "piggybacking" off somebody else's system harks back to the dawn of the internet and the phone phreaking - gaining free calls by cracking the systems - that inspired many technology pioneers.

There's nothing wrong in a little al fresco surfing is there?


Now, of course, the morality of technology is a matter for mainstream discourse.
Barry Fox, contributing editor for Europe Consumer Electronics Daily, says unsecured networks are getting fewer and fewer, but the real moral issue is why computer firms don't take more responsibility for their customers' security.
"When I'm in London I'm in a block of flats, I scan and find unsecured networks. When I first started there were any number of free and unsecured networks, now it's mainly secured networks because many of the ISPs have made it much easier.
"There is a view that if people are daft enough to throw their signal out for anyone to pick up they deserve what they get.
"On the other hand, the computer manufacturers have never done anything to make things easier for the consumer, unless forced to."
The risk of one's computer being hacked or used for malicious purposes is not a fiction, and is the reason that many people insist on securing their wireless connections.
Firework display
But Barry Fox finds it hard to see how a non-invasive use of someone else's signal is a serious crime. "If the person was trying to infect a computer or steal data, that's one thing. But are they going to prosecute someone who stands outside a bakery warming their hands? It is like watching someone else's firework display."
There will be many people who would be outraged to find someone nicking their wireless. The water cooler ethicists may be split down the middle for some time.
But, as Bostrom notes, more attention will bring debates and eventually an accepted norm.
"Maybe with this arrest somebody will want to write a paper on it," he says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6960304.stm

 

[Lockguy3000]

In the eyes of the cable company definitely yes. In the eyes of the law yes. To the person who subscribed to cable not so much provided they do not incur additional charges or degraded signal quality. It would result in a slightly higher cost for subscribers if a lot of people do this. Of course if you were tapping your neighbors cable the fair thing to do by them would be to split the bill with them and the right thing to do is have your own cable account.

are you guys swingers?

 

[Aeris]

This happened to my mom she didnt know alot about wireless internet at the time and had set up a wireless router so I could use the internet on my laptop when I came home from school on weekends and stuff, and one of our neighbours was using the internet and when her bill came in it was really high. If someone was in the area like driving by or just moved in and was getting their internet set up the next day or something and just went on to quickly check thier email or something then thats not a big deal but to use it all the time and download lots of stuff, is wrong. You cant just assume that because it is unsecured the person is inviting you to use it, they may not know that others can use it if it is unsecured, or they may not know how to secure it.

 

[Soul Searcher]

This happened to my mom she didnt know alot about wireless internet at the time and had set up a wireless router so I could use the internet on my laptop when I came home from school on weekends and stuff, and one of our neighbours was using the internet and when her bill came in it was really high. If someone was in the area like driving by or just moved in and was getting their internet set up the next day or something and just went on to quickly check thier email or something then thats not a big deal but to use it all the time and download lots of stuff, is wrong. You cant just assume that because it is unsecured the person is inviting you to use it, they may not know that others can use it if it is unsecured, or they may not know how to secure it.

It's odd that her bill would be high, I guess some services still charge for going over a certian amount of time or bytes mine has no limits beyond the max bandwith of 3mbs. No additional fees no matter how much it is used.

I wouldn't use someone elses service beyond perhaps checking my email if I was out of town and in an area where I could and I wouldn't mind anyone using my service to do the same. I would take issue if my neighbor decided to use my service without my permission rather than getting his own. Should this happen I would simply encrypt the signal but if he/she asked I would probably grant them access so long as it did not interfer with my day to day usage in a noticable way.

 

[Soul Searcher]

are you guys swingers?

No.
Was that an offer

 

[billwald]

the Verizon agreement says it is not permitted to resell access. Nothing about giving it away.

 

[Domenico]

But what about property rights? The wireless extends through my house. (I should note that I havent used it yet, but my brother and sister are making good use of it) They dont have to go anywhere special, sit outside someones fence or even in a certain place in our house. Surely we have a right to use something that is on our property?

 

[flicka]

Mine hasn't been secured for the last 6 years. My next door neighbor was able to stay connected with their laptop the last few days they were moving out and I was glad to help. I haven't seen any unuaual activity on the router log but I will probably secure it one of these days.