Using pascals wager and christianity to kill babies

[deathduck]

Pascal's wager is a philosophic reason for believing in god. It states your expected value is greater if you believe than if you do not.

If you believe and you are correct, you are rewarded with infinity in heaven.

If you believe and are incorrect, you are not punished.

If you do not believe and and are correct, you are not rewarded.

If you do not believe and are incorrect, you are eternally punished.

So as you can see, if you do not believe in god then 1/2 outcomes brings you infinite pain and suffering and no rewards are possible. If you believe, then 1/2 outcomes is eternal rewards with no possibility of punishment.

This, in my opinion, is why many Christian believe in Christianity. I challenge yourself to look deep into your heart and discover if this is one of the core reasons for your belief, and if it is what made you a believer in the first place.

I myself, think hell is an obvious scare tactic created in the old days to make people convert.

Now onto another philosophic issue, the title of my post.

It is generally agreed that if a baby dies it is not going to hell because god recognizes it was too young to decide for itself what was right and wrong / true and untrue doctrine or whatever.

Now, if a baby grows into an adult, there is a chance (a very large chance) that it will not believe in Jesus Christ before it dies. It then suffers eternally in hell for this grave mistake, and suffer eternally. However, if you kill the baby before it has a chance to decide, it is always going to heaven and will be rewarded eternally.

Eternity is so long compared to this short life on earth that the babies expected value is MUCH higher if it dies before it has a chance to decided if Christianity is right or wrong.

THEREFORE!! Under Christian doctrine, it would be a righteous thing to go around slaying babies left and right, because you save them from any chance of eternal damnation and send them strait to heaven.

Using this logic you can clearly see and understand that hell is a place made up by man in order to scare people into religious belief. SPREAD THE WORD!

 

[pekkle]

Very good


Although we all know pascal's wager fails when more than one religion is brought into it, and especially when some of the gods punish those who worship the wrong god yet don't punish atheists.

 

[HighwayMan]

1) I somewhat agree that hell was used as a scare tactic, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

2) You can't fool God. We live this life so that we can be tested and prove ourselves. He alone decides who lives and who dies. Some are taken very young, others old. If you go around killing babies you are interfering with God's plan - among other things.

3) The fact that the "wager" balances out in favor of believing doesn't make faith any more or less true. There are also factors that work against believing. Devoting your life to worshiping an invisible God and depriving yourself from many earthly pleasures and in such wasting your short (and only) existence? (if incorrect) Sounds like a pretty big risk to me.

 

[pekkle]

1) I somewhat agree that hell was used as a scare tactic, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

2) You can't fool God. We live this life so that we can be tested and prove ourselves. He alone decides who lives and who dies. Some are taken very young, others old. If you go around killing babies you are interfering with God's plan - among other things.

Interfering with God's plan? If we were he would stop us.

 

[HighwayMan]

Interfering with God's plan? If we were he would stop us.

What, like strike you down with lightning?

God doesn't work that way. He has given you free will. And if you chose to use it by killing babies, well...

 

[pekkle]

What, like strike you down with lightning?

God doesn't work that way. He has given you free will. And if you chose to use it by killing babies, well...

Then god does nothing? Sounds a lot like what nothing would do.

 

[HighwayMan]

Then god does nothing? Sounds a lot like what nothing would do.

He does more than you can ever imagine - but we don't see it directly in this world. And there's a reason for that. He didn't intervene even when his own son was being tortured and nailed to the cross. If that doesn't prove a point, I don't know what does.

 

[deathduck]

1) I somewhat agree that hell was used as a scare tactic, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

2) You can't fool God. We live this life so that we can be tested and prove ourselves. He alone decides who lives and who dies. Some are taken very young, others old. If you go around killing babies you are interfering with God's plan - among other things.

3) The fact that the "wager" balances out in favor of believing doesn't make faith any more or less true. There are also factors that work against believing. Devoting your life to worshiping an invisible God and depriving yourself from many earthly pleasures and in such wasting your short (and only) existence? (if incorrect) Sounds like a pretty big risk to me.

Lets not derail my thread now, please try to discuss the issue I have presented.

Highwayman your post doesn't really make enough sense. In point 2 you say god alone decides who lives and dies, and then you say if you kill babies you interrupt his plan. This point conflicts with itself.

I am not trying to disprove any faith here, I am trying to disprove the 'hell' part of the Christian belief system. If this unravels the whole thing, so be it, but I think it does not.

You have no addressed my point that killing a baby would save it from the possibility of eternity in hell and guarantee it a life in heaven. Please stay on subject.

 

[HighwayMan]

Lets not derail my thread now, please try to discuss the issue I have presented.

Highwayman your post doesn't really make enough sense. In point 2 you say god alone decides who lives and dies, and then you say if you kill babies you interrupt his plan. This point conflicts with itself.

I am not trying to disprove any faith here, I am trying to disprove the 'hell' part of the Christian belief system. If this unravels the whole thing, so be it, but I think it does not.

You have no addressed my point that killing a baby would save it from the possibility of eternity in hell and guarantee it a life in heaven. Please stay on subject.

Where do i stray off subject? I addressed all the points made.

As for the last paragraph - yes, I suppose that if taken out of context your principle would work. But getting to heaven is not the sole purpose of this life. If it was that simple God would not have made Earth in the first place. As I said - we are here to learn about God and be tested. By killing the babies you are taking away their purpose. You are taking away their chance to use their free will.

Not to mention that obviously you are also damning yourself. There's a reason for the 10 Commandments, you know.

This is like a suicidal person wanting to kill himself so as not to suffer anymore. One one hand - he's right - this will take him away from all his problems. But that still does not make his decision right.

 

[pekkle]

but we don't see it directly in this world.

How convenient.

And there's a reason for that. He didn't intervene even when his own son was being tortured and nailed to the cross. If that doesn't prove a point, I don't know what does.

How is that a reason? That just proves that god doesn't help those who suffer.

 

[deathduck]

Where do i stray off subject? I addressed all the points made.

As for the last paragraph - yes, I suppose that if taken out of context your principle would work. But getting to heaven is not the sole purpose of this life. If it was that simple God would not have made Earth in the first place. As I said - we are here to learn about God and be tested. By killing the babies you are taking away their purpose. You are taking away their chance to use their free will.

Not to mention that obviously you are also damning yourself. There's a reason for the 10 Commandments, you know.

This is like a suicidal person wanting to kill himself so as not to suffer anymore. One one hand - he's right - this will take him away from all his problems. But that still does not make his decision right.

So by killing a baby I am taking away its purpose, which is to be tested and learn about god. The result is the baby goes to heaven and experiences eternal happiness. The baby will also learn all about god when it gets to heaven, so that is not an issue.

All I am taking away from the baby then is testing and a life which is less rewarding than heaven, not to mention a completely insignificant amount of time compared to eternity. I still think I am doing the baby a favor, by reducing its risk of going to hell by 100%, because eternity is so large compared to life on earth that earth life gets a weighted value of ZERO! (Infinity) / (100 years earth life) = infinity, your time on earth is literally nothing compared to the eternal afterlife. By sending the baby strait to heaven and avoiding hell, I guarantee him the best possible life.

And finally, no you are not damning yourself. You are a Christian and simply ask Jesus for forgiveness with all your heart after each murder.

In fact, when you do go to heaven you are greeted by all those babies who would have been atheist or other religion and thanked profusely for giving them a 1 way ticket to heaven instead of hell where they would have ended up.

This makes so much sense that I really hope the thread doesn't spawn Christian baby serial killers. Because if the doctrine of hell is real, then I wish I was killed as a baby.

 

[rstrats]

pekkle,

re: "Although we all know pascal's wager fails when more than one religion is brought into it..."

The Wager fails before that. It is invalid right from the start since it is based on the notion that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone does or doesn’t exist and of course that is impossible.

 

[CShephard53]

Pascal's wager is a philosophic reason for believing in god. It states your expected value is greater if you believe than if you do not.

If you believe and you are correct, you are rewarded with infinity in heaven.

If you believe and are incorrect, you are not punished.

If you do not believe and and are correct, you are not rewarded.

If you do not believe and are incorrect, you are eternally punished.

So as you can see, if you do not believe in god then 1/2 outcomes brings you infinite pain and suffering and no rewards are possible. If you believe, then 1/2 outcomes is eternal rewards with no possibility of punishment.

This, in my opinion, is why many Christian believe in Christianity. I challenge yourself to look deep into your heart and discover if this is one of the core reasons for your belief, and if it is what made you a believer in the first place.

I myself, think hell is an obvious scare tactic created in the old days to make people convert.

Now onto another philosophic issue, the title of my post.

It is generally agreed that if a baby dies it is not going to hell because god recognizes it was too young to decide for itself what was right and wrong / true and untrue doctrine or whatever.

Now, if a baby grows into an adult, there is a chance (a very large chance) that it will not believe in Jesus Christ before it dies. It then suffers eternally in hell for this grave mistake, and suffer eternally. However, if you kill the baby before it has a chance to decide, it is always going to heaven and will be rewarded eternally.

Eternity is so long compared to this short life on earth that the babies expected value is MUCH higher if it dies before it has a chance to decided if Christianity is right or wrong.

THEREFORE!! Under Christian doctrine, it would be a righteous thing to go around slaying babies left and right, because you save them from any chance of eternal damnation and send them strait to heaven.

Using this logic you can clearly see and understand that hell is a place made up by man in order to scare people into religious belief. SPREAD THE WORD!

Sorry, but that fails in the assumption that babies go to heaven. We don't know that. And your last part (underlined) is a large jump in logic. Hell is not made up, if you wanted to say that you would have to back it with evidence. Not philosophy.

 

[deathduck]

Sorry, but that fails in the assumption that babies go to heaven. We don't know that. And your last part (underlined) is a large jump in logic. Hell is not made up, if you wanted to say that you would have to back it with evidence. Not philosophy.

Well if babies do not go to heaven then they go to hell. Either scenario is equally ridiculous.

Try telling a grieving mother that her dead baby is in hell because she was too slow to baptize it. This is just not fair and I would expect better from god. Because of this, we can assume babies go to heaven, but either case supports my main argument (hell does not exist).

Religion and philosophy are very close, closer than religion and physical evidence (see religon vs. science). I'm not trying to debate that, I'm just showing one line of thought which shows how the Christian hell system is flawed.

 

[HighwayMan]

This makes so much sense that I really hope the thread doesn't spawn Christian baby serial killers. Because if the doctrine of hell is real, then I wish I was killed as a baby.

Yeah, you just about cracked the whole system here. :/

The thing is you're not using any practical logic. If we can kill babies, why not just blow up the entire planet and end it all? We certainly have the weapons...

It is not our place to be deciding who goes to heaven or hell. That job belongs to God. Our job is to live life and, you know - let others live theirs too.

 

[CShephard53]

Well if babies do not go to heaven then they go to hell. Either scenario is equally ridiculous.

Try telling a grieving mother that her dead baby is in hell because she was too slow to baptize it. This is just not fair and I would expect better from god. Because of this, we can assume babies go to heaven, but either case supports my main argument (hell does not exist).

Religion and philosophy are very close, closer than religion and physical evidence (see religon vs. science). I'm not trying to debate that, I'm just showing one line of thought which shows how the Christian hell system is flawed.

Claiming something is ridiculous does not make it ridiculous. Try again.

 

[deathduck]

Claiming something is ridiculous does not make it ridiculous. Try again.

Try telling a grieving mother that her dead baby is in hell because she was too slow to baptize it. This is just not fair and I would expect better from god.

This is why dead babies going to hell is ridiculous, not simply because I said so. Try again.

Yeah, you just about cracked the whole system here. :/

The thing is you're not using any practical logic. If we can kill babies, why not just blow up the entire planet and end it all? We certainly have the weapons...

It is not our place to be deciding who goes to heaven or hell. That job belongs to God. Our job is to live life and, you know - let others live theirs too.

Blow up the whole world you say? Actually that is not a bad idea, according to Christian hell doctrine. More than 1/2 the world is not a Christian and is therefore going to hell. Those people will produce more babies who will ultimately die a non-Christian. As long as more people are going into an eternal hell instead of heaven, then we should stop production of people to stop the ever-increasing net suffering.

Remember: The suffering or joy of life on earth is mathematically equal too nothing when compared to the suffering or joy of an eternal afterlife.

 

[CShephard53]

Try telling a grieving mother that her dead baby is in hell because she was too slow to baptize it. This is just not fair and I would expect better from god.

This is why dead babies going to hell is ridiculous, not simply because I said so. Try again.

Blow up the whole world you say? Actually that is not a bad idea, according to Christian hell doctrine. More than 1/2 the world is not a Christian and is therefore going to hell. Those people will produce more babies who will ultimately die a non-Christian. As long as more people are going into an eternal hell instead of heaven, then we should stop production of people to stop the ever-increasing net suffering.

Remember: The suffering or joy of life on earth is mathematically equal too nothing when compared to the suffering or joy of an eternal afterlife.

Baptism alone does not get one to heaven. That is not a reason. That's an excuse.

 

[Nathan45]

it's just a stupid meme.

"Believe meme= good, heavenly bliss, good, love, good."

"disbelieve meme= bad, terror, bad, eternal torture, bad"

"question meme= bad, meme knows better than you do, meme = heavenly, you = earthly, meme = smart, you = foolish mortal!"

"Do not doubt, only believe" says the meme.

...

does it seem strange to anyone else that the bible reads like a chain letter?

 

[deathduck]

Baptism alone does not get one to heaven. That is not a reason. That's an excuse.

Ok, well maybe baptism doesn't allow a baby to go to heaven after death, however my point still stands that it is unjust to send a baby to hell after death.