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Useful Protestant Doctrine

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patriarch

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My understanding of the Protestant idea of justification is that the Lord does not *really* cleanse us of our sins and sinfulness, but rather *declares* us to be clean. This I think is known as forensic justification.  As an image, I believe Luther suggested that we think of a dunghill covered with snow. (If this is a misrepresentation of the Reformer's ideas, please correct me. I don't meant to give offense.)

This is a very nifty idea when used correctly.

For example, my wife is a very hard working, house-proud lady of Polish extraction, who happens to teach Math.  As far as the housecleaning goes, I help, but without a great deal of conviction it must be said. 

Most of the time, the place gets a pretty thorough cleaning on Thursdays and Saturdays, but about two or three times a year we lack the time or the energy to tackle the job. When that happens, our theology veers sharply into the Reformer's camp and we simply declare the place clean.

This absolutely works. Any time I see my wife dragging at week's end, I simply declare the place clean.  She doesn't always buy it, but it's much easier on all of us when she does, believe me.

This is one of the practical benefits of studying apolgetics.

Try it.  It worked for me, it may work for you. It makes for more relaxing weekends, believe me.

Yes, we really do this.  The correct form to use is, "I declare the place clean."

Patriarch
 

patriarch

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This theology isn't as effective in other situations. For example, to save my wife some time I have tried declaring the ironing done, but no...

However, the other day she was very apologetic because she had thought she was buying organic eggs and instead grabbed the conventional eggs.  I was able to save the situation entirely by simply declaring the eggs organic, and we had a very happy breakfast whereas otherwise we might have been wondering what we were doing to ourselves.

I am open to other applications of this notion, esp in the labor saving area.

Patriarch
 
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seebs

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It's an interesting idea. I often find that the correct thing to do with a temporarily overwhelming task is declare it "good enough". This is perhaps sometimes an easier way to understand God's ability to put up with us.
 
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Crono

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FYI, not all Protestant denominations necessarily believe this doctrine.  Luther and Calvin obviously did, but Wesley and I think the Anabaptists did not.  A church that is part of the holiness movement probably would not believe it.
 
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patriarch

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Originally posted by Wolseley
Will it work equally well if declare myself rich?

Or would that be drifting into the "name it 'n claim it" prosperity game?

:D

Naturally, I have tried this, and it works up to a point. It enables you to move with ease and aplomb among the rich and the super-rich, but, alas, it does not pay the bills. :(
 
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patriarch

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Originally posted by Crono
FYI, not all Protestant denominations necessarily believe this doctrine.  Luther and Calvin obviously did, but Wesley and I think the Anabaptists did not.  A church that is part of the holiness movement probably would not believe it.

Thanks very much for this info, Crono.

Patriarch
 
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Auntie

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Originally posted by patriarch
My understanding of the Protestant idea of justification is that the Lord does not *really* cleanse us of our sins and sinfulness, but rather *declares* us to be clean.

Patriarch


Patriarch,

I don't know any Protestants that believe what you have stated. Protestants believe we are washed in the shed Blood of Christ.

Cute jokes, but your analogy is way off.
 
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Auntie

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VOW,

Whatever he was referring to, I find his analogy offensive, and lacking in a sincere motivation for Unity and Understanding of each others beliefs. There is no love in mockery, regardless of whose faith is being mocked.
 
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Bondservant

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Auntie_Belle_Um,

I agree whole heartedly - The doctrine that Patriach is refering to is a very serous one and I too am very much offended by his analogy. It is inappropriate for us to make light of such things.

I find it much easier to deal with the truth of a situation then to create a lie - by "confessing" that the eggs are something that they are not is simply a lie - God has a very specific command against such a thing.

I prefer not to create a lie to handle dealing with the truth. My desk is a mess right now and I have to clean it up - but simply stating that it is clean does no good - I would be lying to myself if I did.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EDIT:

I can say that the doctrine of justification as taught by Luther is the biblical teaching. We are declared righteous just as Abraham was declared righteous. Research double imputation for a better understanding, - in short our sin is imputed to Jesus on the cross, and his rigtheousness is imputed to us - thus we stand before the father justified by the propitiatory act of Jesus
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by patriarch
My understanding of the Protestant idea of justification is that the Lord does not *really* cleanse us of our sins and sinfulness, but rather *declares* us to be clean.

Most of the time, the place gets a pretty thorough cleaning on Thursdays and Saturdays, but about two or three times a year we lack the time or the energy to tackle the job. When that happens, our theology veers sharply into the Reformer's camp and we simply declare the place clean.

Hmmm...not sure what you're saying here.  It sounds as if you are posting this in an effort at levity rather than offense.  I could be wrong, however.  Could you elaborate?  This statement can be found as very offensive, not to mention inaccurate.  Maybe if you cleared up what you were saying.

Thanks,

God bless.
 
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isshinwhat

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Most churches who follow the theological traditions of Martin Luther or John Calvin hold to the doctrine of imputed righteousness. These include the various Lutheran communions, as well as most Presbyterian and Reformed Evangelical Churches. Both the passage from Soverign Grace Church and Dr. RC Sproul's essay discuss the differences from a Evangelical Protestant perspective.

http://www.minnesotagrace.net/index.htm

For those who are in Christ, their sins are covered. Christ's righteousness covers us and hides our sins from God. Martin Luther used an illustration of a dung hill freshly covered with snow. The dung was still underneath but to the eye all that is see is the snow. Likewise, we still sin, even in those things we do in an attempt to please God, but in Christ those sins are covered and God sees Christ's righteousness and not our sinfulness

Imputed Righteousness: The Evangelical Doctrine


by R.C. Sproul
At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified, but about the very meaning of justification itself.

Reformed theology insists that the biblical doctrine of justification is forensic in nature. What does this mean? In the popular jargon of religion, the word forensic is used infrequently. The word is not foreign, however, to ordinary language. It appears daily in the news media, particularly with reference to criminal investigations and trials. We hear of "forensic evidence" and "forensic medicine" as we listen to the reports of criminologists, coroners, and pathologists. Here the term forensic refers to the judicial system and judicial proceedings.

The term forensic is also used to describe events connected with public speaking. Schools hold forensic contests or events that feature formal debates or the delivery of speeches.

The link between these ordinary usages of forensic and its theological use is that justification has to do with a legal or judicial matter involving some type of declaration. We can reduce its meaning to the concept of legal declaration.

The doctrine of justification involves a legal matter of the highest order. Indeed it is the legal issue on which the sinner stands or falls: his status before the supreme tribunal of God.

When we are summoned to appear before the bar of God's judgment, we face a judgment based on perfect justice. The presiding Judge is himself perfectly just. He is also omniscient, fully aware of our every deed, thought, inclination, and word. Measured by the standard of his canon of righteousness, we face the psalmist's rhetorical question that hints at despair: "If you, LORD, should mark iniquities, ...who could stand?" (Psalm 130:3 NKJV).

The obvious answer to this query is supplied by the Apostle Paul: "There is none righteous, no, not one...." (Romans 3:10).

God commands us to be holy. Our moral obligation coram Deo (before the face of God) is to live perfect lives. One sin mars that obligation and leaves us naked, exposed before divine justice. Once a person sins at all, a perfect record is impossible. Even if we could live perfectly after that one sin, we would still fail to achieve perfection. Our sin may be forgiven, but forgiveness does not undo the sin. The consequences of the sin may be removed or ameliorated, but the sin itself is not undone.

The Bible speaks figuratively about the sin being washed, cleansed, healed, and blotted out. The sin, which is scarlet, may become white as snow, the crimson may become like wool, in God's sight. The sin may be cast into the sea of forgetfulness or purged with hyssop. But these images describe an expiation for sin and divine forgiveness or remission of our sin. Our record does not change, but our guilt does. Hence Paul declares, "Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin" (Romans 4:8 NKJV).

In our redemptive forgiveness God does not charge us with what we owe. He does not count our sins against us. If he did, no one (except Jesus) would ever escape his just wrath. No one but Christ would be able to stand before God's judgment.

Again, God in his grace may regenerate us, sanctify us, and even glorify us. He might make us perfect in the future. He really does change the elect and will eventually make the justified totally and completely righteous. But even the perfected saint in heaven was once a sinner and has a track record that, apart from the grace of justification, would send him to hell.

Thus, where temporal creatures are concerned, everyone who is once imperfect is always imperfect with respect to the whole scope of the person's individual history. This is what Thomas Aquinas meant when he asserted that justification is always of the impious (iustificatio impii). Righteous people have no need of justification, even as the healthy have no need of a physician.

Both Roman Catholic and Reformation theology are concerned with the justification of sinners. Both sides recognize that the great human dilemma is how unjust sinners can ever hope to survive a judgment before the court of an absolutely holy and absolutely just God.

If we define forensic justification as a legal declaration by which God declares a person just and we leave it at that, we would have no dispute between Rome and Evangelicalism. Though

Rome has an antipathy to the concept of forensic justification, this antipathy is directed against the Protestant view of it. In chapter 7 of the sixth session of the Council of Trent, Rome declared: "...not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure...."

Here Rome is jealous to distinguish between being reputed just and actually being just, yet it is still true that God calls the baptismally regenerated just. That is, for Rome justification is forensic in that justification involves God's legal declaration. A person is justified when God declares that person just. The reason or the ground of that declaration differs radically between Roman Catholic and Reformed theology. But both agree that a legal declaration by God is made.

Nor is it sufficient merely to say that Rome teaches that justification means "to make just," while Protestants teach that justification means "to declare just." For Rome God both makes just and declares just. For Protestants God both makes just and declares just -- but not in the same way. For Rome the declaration of justice follows the making inwardly just of the regenerate sinner. For the Reformation the declaration of justice follows the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the regenerated sinner.
 
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Reformationist

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Neal, I don't think the general protestant concensus was that patriarch was relaying that the imputation of God's grace through the propitiatory death of Christ made us righteous in the eyes of God.  Yet not having been inculcated with the righteousness of the Redeemer we are still able to sin and therefore this dunghill that is represented is merely a sign of the state of our old man/old nature of which we are not held accountable.

That is unless, of course, you guys are taught that upon redemption all of your actions are righteous as well?

God bless.
 
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isshinwhat

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This involves a long discussion about sanctification which ends in a discussion on Purgatory, and I'm about to leave for a job interview right now, so I don't really have time to delve into it. I lied to KC and told him I wasn't going to be on again today or tommorrow, but, hey, I'm an addict. :) I'll start a thread on the topic in the PCJ Forum on Wednesday, if unless there is already on going when I get back online. Till then, God bless and good luck unpacking.

Neal
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
I'll start a thread on the topic in the PCJ Forum on Wednesday, if unless there is already on going when I get back online.

Lookin' forward to it bro!

Till then, God bless and good luck unpacking.

Neal

Thanks again. :) :wave:

God bless
 
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