Use of the aorist

[GDL]

Good point. Which calls into question whether such an illustration is referring to salvation, seeing as Paul, both in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 makes the point that getting saved is nothing you can boast about. But if it's a reward for your efforts, that's something you can boast about and thus the contradiction. And as such TibiasDad's analogy doesn't hold.

Just to be clear, my post was sarcastic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what I asked:
"Can you explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life? Jesus said He GIVES eternal life to His sheep. So, WHEN does that occur? Specifically."

Your denial of the scriptures shared with you in regards to LUKE 8:13 and elsewhere is noted but not agreed to or accepted as we should believe the scriptures which are God's Word.

I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned.

Your other question has already been answered. Please read post # 202 seems you missed it.

OK. Doug gave an unbiblical answer. I'll check yours out. And thanks for answering.

Well, I checked out post #202 - This is what you answered.

"What for? I am not arguing about when a person receives eternal life but how (believing). The scriptures are pretty clear about this question however so not sure why your asking this. We have the hope of eternal life now when we believe and follow God's Words. We receive eternal life after we have been tried and have endured temptation and continue believing and following."

This does not meet Scripture at all. Your answer is as wrong as Doug's.

I'll now challenge you with what I challenged Doug with, given your answers.

Explain HOW John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 SAY that eternal life is a present tense POSSESSION on the basis of belief in Christ.

Your answer is in direct opposition to these verses.

And, 1 Jn 5:11 even uses the aorist tense about Jesus "having given" eternal life. So how can the possession be future, as you opine?

 

[FreeGrace2]

No English translation, to my knowledge, has the word " never"

I don't care!! It doesn't matter. The ONLY question you need to answer is this:

Does "has NOT believed" mean "has NEVER believed" or not? If not, then please provide a thorough explanation as to WHY NOT. I say they mean the same thing.

nor does the Greek have the word never in it, so that is all the proof that we need.

So you're hiding behind the argument of silence, huh? You NEED to answer my question, if you really consider yourself a Bible student.

You are the one that proposed the "never" translation, so it is your burden to support your assertions.

I am basing my "assertion" on the FACT that "has not believed" obviously means "has NEVER believed". So it's YOUR burden to disprove my claim.

I claim it is so obvious. If it isn't even true, it should be easy to refute my claim.

Remember, truth always wins. Truth refutes every untruth. Do you have the truth?

It isn't de facto truth because you claim it is!

Exactly! That's WHY the burden is on you, who claim to have the truth to refute me.

You offer no evidence to support your assertions, and there is nothing to suggest that it might remotely be true, so we have nothing to disprove.

I say it's obviously true. So go ahead and disprove me, if you can.

The very fact that you are just stalling and trying to dodge having to disprove me says basically everything anyone needs to know about your own position.

You can't disprove my claim. It's just too obvious.

Here's an example to help you along.

I will assume, for argument's sake, that you have NEVER murdered anyone.

Now, is it correct to say that you "have not murdered anyone" or not?

If that would be an incorrect statement, then explain how it is.

However, if that statement IS correct, then you have proven that the 2 phrases mean the same thing.

You "have not murdered" also means you "have NEVER murdered".

If you don't see this, there is no hope of having any kind of reasonable or rational discussion.

So, have you ever murdered anyone?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 16:31 is a unique point, as the beginning of anything is, because there is only one "first time" experience. The start of the jailer's life as a believer is the pivot point in his life, going from the state of not believing to the state of believing is the stress point of the ingressive aorist.

It seems you are straining at a gnat here. To "start to believe" is the same as "believing". Unless you can prove there is a significant difference.

The start point of believing is singular and punctiliar; the believing that began at that punctiliar moment is an active, dynamic and assumed to be ongoing by the nature of believing being a continuous concept.

Wrong again. There is NOTHING in the aorist that speaks of "assuming an ongoing or continuous concept". Flatly wrong.

What happened with the jailer? He started (punctiliar/aorist) believing (active and assumed by its nature to go on, for there is no such thing as inactive believing).

Doug

I've already explained that ALL believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise.

All you're doing is stating the obvious.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"There is no difference. You're making up stuff."

Are you saying that my statement, "but to be believing one must start believing", is false?

Just read what I posted. "There is NO difference".

That there doesn't have to be a starting point of believing at some point in the past to be believing today?

Please explain the difference between "starting to believe" with "believing".

[QQUOTE]If they are the same thing, demonstrate it! Prove your point![/QUOTE]
No, you think they are different. Go ahead and explain WHY they are.

There is a huge difference between the starting point of believing and believing at a subsequent point.

There's your opening! Now, explain yourself. Your claim is empty without evidence.

The day that you started believing in Christ is not today, Aug 28, 2020. Your faith does not start every day, there is only one first time, one starting point, every other day is a continuation of what began that first moment in the past.
Doug

And that is the point of the aorist tense. The starting point of belief is a point in time. And, as a result of THAT point in time, the believer WILL BE SAVED.

Why don't you see this as a promise of eternal life? It's quite obvious to me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The English does not have "never" in the translation!

Quit spinning your wheels and explain WHY "has not believed" CANNOT mean "has NEVER believed". It seems all you do is spin your wheels. Get some traction, and explain HOW they cannot be the same.

So you apparently don't understand the English either! Besides, wasn't it you that said "the Greek grammar is all the matters", or something to that effect? So which is more important, the English or the Greek?

Doug

Doesn't matter. Just explain to me how they CANNOT mean the same thing.

But all your stalling and wheel spinning tells me everything I need to know. You simply CAN'T explain a difference, because there is NO difference at all.

And I gave you a perfect example that proves my claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Titus 1:1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior...
Titus 3:5....
Jude 20
1John 2:24
Gal 3:18
2 Tim 1:1
2Pet 1:3
2Cor 1:1
Heb 6:12

These are but a few of the scriptural references that what God has given us are promises which those "who purify [themselves] from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" will ultimately receive!

And YOU are ignoring (or flat out rejecting) John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13 about the PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 where John used the aorist tense (HAS GIVEN us) of possession of eternal life.

So, it's obvious that you do not understand the verses you have cited.

Again, your quotations, while true, are only a minority of the verses in evidence and cannot be properly understood or interpreted in a vacuum or a bubble that insulates them from all the other references.

lol. My true quotations are PART of the whole, not "in a vacuum/bubble", as you insinuate. How absurd. The FACT that they are true, as you note, proves that my view is true as well.

If we take your position, and use these few verses to interpret all the others, then we have a very strong contradiction in the verses that speak of eternal life as a promise, and many examples of this contradictory battle of words are written by John.

What you ssem to misunderstand altogether is that the words "eternal life" can refer to the gift that Jesus gives WHEN one believes, as shown from Scripture, or to the actual experience of eternity itself after one physically dies.

But, it takes some spiritual discernment to understand this.

Now, in one sense, Jesus Christ is eternal life (1John 1:2), and when he lives in us, we possess eternal life, but this is just one aspect and not the whole reality.

Doug

I'll use your own words. In one sense, eternal life is a present tense possession of every believer. In another sense, eternal life is eternity itself, which IS a future promise.

See the difference?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE."

True but that is because "believing" is in the present tense.

Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise. And WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life. Once belief, possess eternal life. OBPE.

What about 1 John 5:11, where John eternal life "has been given". Care to explain how that aligns with your opinions?

If you no longer have belief then you no longer have salvation as believing is a condition of eternal life.

This opinion is what you cannot defend from Scripture. Even though you are trying.

From the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13.

And 1 John 5:11 says eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to the believer.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned.

Well that is not true dear friend, sure you denied it. You denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied. Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now.

Well, I checked out post #202 - This is what you answered. "What for? I am not arguing about when a person receives eternal life but how (believing). The scriptures are pretty clear about this question however so not sure why your asking this. We have the hope of eternal life now when we believe and follow God's Words. We receive eternal life after we have been tried and have endured temptation and continue believing and following." This does not meet Scripture at all. Your answer is as wrong as Doug's. I'll now challenge you with what I challenged Doug with, given your answers. Explain HOW John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:11 and 13 SAY that eternal life is a present tense POSSESSION on the basis of belief in Christ. Your answer is in direct opposition to these verses. And, 1 Jn 5:11 even uses the aorist tense about Jesus "having given" eternal life. So how can the possession be future, as you opine?

Yea sorry, your hand waiving does not cut it with me. All you are doing here is simply denying 30+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of one scripture. 1 JOHN 5:11 and v13 are in harmony with the 30+ that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you. As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.

Sorry dear friend it seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said:
"Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE." Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise. And WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life. Once belief, possess eternal life. OBPE.

Your just repeating yourself here without reading or considering the content of the posts and scriptures shared with you. Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a persona stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.

What about 1 John 5:11, where John eternal life "has been given". Care to explain how that aligns with your opinions? This opinion is what you cannot defend from Scripture. Even though you are trying. From the MOMENT one believes, they HAVE eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13. And 1 John 5:11 says eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to the believer.

What about 1 JOHN 5:11? This scripture is in harmony with all the scripture and Greek already presented in post # 202 linked. As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have been tried in temptation and have been found to remain faithful continuing to believe and follow God's Word to the very end and remained faithful. If you disagree with post # 202 linked and the scriptures and the Greek provided, prove your claims. So far all you have done here is denied the scriptures that disagree with you and provided an opinion. Now you are free to believe as you wish but the scriptures shared with you are Gods Word not mine. So your argument is with God not me.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned."

Well that is not true dear friend, sure you denied it.

Prove this with a post #.

You denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied.

I've NEVER denied that the continuous present existed only for a while. In fact, I pointed out that continuous belief doesn't mean forever.

Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now.

That has always been my point. They ceased to believe.

Yea sorry, your hand waiving does not cut it with me.

Oh, cut the nonsense and hyperbole.

All you are doing here is simply denying 30+ scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of one scripture.

This ridiculous and false claim is beyond pathetic. You cannot show ANY verse that I deny.

What you obviously don't grasp is that I deny YOUR unbiblical "interpretations" of those 30+ verses.

1 JOHN 5:11 in harmony with the 30+ that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you.

How can the "Greek disagree with me" since I have pointed out the aorist tense of "eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to you"?? Why are you having so much trouble understanding this?

As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment.

It is YOU who fail to understand God's Word. John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS (have) eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 says the believer "has been given eternal life".

We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end.

OK, quote ANY verse that actually says this.

If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.

Show me. I deny your claim. Prove me wrong.

Sorry dear friend it seems like God's Word disagrees with you.

Not at all. In fact, it is YOUR words that disagree with me, because they disagree with God's Word.

There's really no point in debating/discussing with those who think that salvation is earned and worked for. Such people (SDA, RCC, etc) do not understand GRACE at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your just repeating yourself here without reading or considering the content of the posts and scriptures shared with you.

On the contrary, I am repeating Scripture in the hope that it may actually begin to sink in.

Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a persona stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.

Please, please please quote me the single most clear verse that makes this clear.

Note: I am not asking for specific wording, but I am asking for specifically clear teaching.

What about 1 JOHN 5:11? This scripture is in harmony with all the scripture and Greek already presented in post # 202 linked.

Your "answer" in post #202 was a complete MESS. Not even close to the gospel. Just a works oriented kind of salvation. Not really different that what the Pharisees who Jesus called vipers believed. You're in their camp.

And 1 John 5:11 plainly says believers HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life.
"has been given" is an AIA, or aorist indicative active. So this proves that the gift is something that has already been given to those who believe.

As shown in the scriptures already we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment.

You haven't yet proven your works oriented claim. Because you can't. But, you can repeat yourself. Frequently.

We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have been tried in temptation and have been found to remain faithful continuing to believe and follow God's Word to the very end and remained faithful.

Yeah, that's what you claimed in post #202. Totally unbiblical. But totally Pharisaical.

If you disagree with post # 202 linked and the scriptures and the Greek provided, prove your claims.

My proof is in Scripture. Many many verses that teach that salvation/eternal life is conditioned upon belief. No mention of "remaining faithful/continuing to believe/following God's Word "to the very end".

All you've got is works. That will NOT get you or anyone else into heaven. In fact, such an idea will keep anyone out of heaven.

So far all you have done here is denied the scriptures that disagree with you and provided an opinion.

No, I've denied your faulty interpretation of Scripture. And I totally REJECT your works salvation stuff.

 

[TibiasDad]

I say it's obviously true.

Obvious should have evidence for its obviousness! The only evidence you have is your own proclamation, and with all due respect, that is meaningless, and thus worthless.

You "have not murdered" also means you "have NEVER murdered". If you don't see this, there is no hope of having any kind of reasonable or rational discussion.

So, have you ever murdered anyone?

Ah, so this is the meaning of obvious! Certainly in some instances, as in murdering, it might be true, but not necessarily. Jesus and John teach that anyone who speaks angrily with his brother is guilty of murder (Matt 5:21-22 , 1John 3:15), so while I have never taken someone's life at any time, I have been angry at my brother a time or two in the past, so it would depend on the circumstance whether I have ever murdered!

Likewise with believing. I can say that I used to believe X but no longer do so, yet, if believing in X is a condition for salvation, and I do not at this moment believe, then I am condemned because I have not believed but this does not necessarily mean I have never believed. Moreover, scripture equates believing with obeying, and I have certainly obeyed at some points, and not obeyed at others so if the Lord calls me on the carpet for my disobedience and I question him as to why, he has every right to say " because you have not obeyed"! But this obviously doesn't mean I have never obeyed!

You assume that because "never" is a possible meaning that it must always mean never. That is another example of logical error and cult-like argumentation.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

And that is the point of the aorist tense. The starting point of belief is a point in time. And, as a result of THAT point in time, the believer WILL BE SAVED.

Why don't you see this as a promise of eternal life? It's quite obvious to me.

We are not saved only because we start to believe, we are saved because we are believing/believers! And yes, I do believe it is a promise, a promise for the future, a promise yet unrealized, but held by faith as if it has happened already!

Doug

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said:"I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned." Prove this with a post #. I've NEVER denied that the continuous present existed only for a while. In fact, I pointed out that continuous belief doesn't mean forever. That has always been my point. They ceased to believe.

Indeed and I disagreed with you by stating that your claims were not true and proved this by showing you denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied. Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now. The scripture by itself proves that the concept of once saved always saved is not biblical and proves this scripture is in harmony with everything that has been shared with you in this thread. If you say you agree with what has been presented here then your agreeing that once saved always saved is not biblical. If you agree that OSAS is not biblical what are you arguing about?

Oh, cut the nonsense and hyperbole. This ridiculous and false claim is beyond pathetic. You cannot show ANY verse that I deny. What you obviously don't grasp is that I deny YOUR unbiblical "interpretations" of those 30+ verses.

Well that is not true dear friend as there was no nonsense or hyperbole. You have only been told the truth. You were shown many scriptures that you simply hand waived and denied in post # 202 linked how can you say otherwise? Evidence linked for all to see. Your response instead of showing why you disagree was to simply state you disagree. Sorry dear friend but how can you deny God's Word with your words? For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. You have provided none except your own words that are not God's Word so once again your argument is with God not me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

How can the "Greek disagree with me" since I have pointed out the aorist tense of "eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to you"?? Why are you having so much trouble understanding this? It is YOU who fail to understand God's Word. John 5:24, 6;47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe PRESENTLY POSSESS (have) eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 says the believer "has been given eternal life".

There is no failing anything my side dear friend as the aorist does not effect what is being shared with you so your comment here is simply a distraction. 1 JOHN 5:11; JOHN 5:24, 6;47 and 1 JOHN 5:13 are all in harmony with the 30+ scriptures that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you in JOHN 3:36. As shown in the scriptures already God's Word (not mine) says we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not physically receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end according to the scriptures. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.

OK, quote ANY verse that actually says this. Show me. I deny your claim. Prove me wrong.

Already did. Please see post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you in JOHN 3:36. As shown in the scriptures already, God's Word (not mine) says we have the hope and God's promise of eternal life today while believing and following God's Word in the present moment. We do not receive the promise of eternal life until we have resisted temptation and remained faithful to the very end. If we depart the faith and fall away into unbelief we forfeit the conditions required for eternal life. These are Gods Word not mine.

There's really no point in debating/discussing with those who think that salvation is earned and worked for. Such people (SDA, RCC, etc) do not understand GRACE at all.

Sadly your comments here are an untruthful distraction. I believe no such things. If I do not believe God's salvation is earned by works why are you pretending that this is what I believe. Or if you do not know what I believe why do you not simply ask me?

So that there is no misunderstandings let me tell you exactly what I believe so you do not make these unfounded comments in the future. I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved, it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

Let me know when you want to talk scripture. Until then we will have to agree to disagree dear friend.

Hope this helps your misunderstanding.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord wrote: Your simply stating what I already shared with you. If you believe what you just posted you would know that if a person stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life which is believing in the present tense.

Your response here...

Please, please please quote me the single most clear verse that makes this clear. Note: I am not asking for specific wording, but I am asking for specifically clear teaching.

How about many scriptures showing that if a person stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life ?

1. REPENTANCE
(Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 13:3; Act of the Apostles 2:38; Act of the Apostles 3:19; Act of the Apostles 8:22; Act of the Apostles 17:30; Revelation 3:19),

2. CONFESSION OF SIN
(1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1; Proverbs 28:13) and of course all of the above are acts of believing God's Word and are linked into

3. FAITH IN GOD'S WORD (present moment John 3:15-16; 18; 36; Romans 1:16; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 14:23; James 2:17-26; Romans 3:31).

All of the above are conditions to receiving eternal life. If we forfeit these conditions we forfeit God's promises of eternal life as God's promise of eternal life is only to those who believe and follow his Word *John 10:26-27 in the present moment. For example if we once believed and followed Gods' Word yesterday and depart the faith today to become an "unbeliever" then we are no longer believing and following Gods' Word and therefore God's promises do not apply. Let's consider what God's Word says on this topic...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,
[5], AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOSE END IS TO BE BURNED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 links right in here but it is referring to those who were once Christians but fall away in to a life on known unrepentant sin receiving the same punishment as the above scriptures show v8....whose end is to be burned.

Note the following points pulled directly from HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...

1. They were once enlightened; Hebrews 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; Hebrews 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; Hebrews 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; Hebrews 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; Hebrews 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; Hebrews 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; Hebrews 6:6

Let now link this to Hebrews 10:26-39...

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 ...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; Hebrews 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; Hebrews 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; Hebrews 10:27
4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have received a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; Hebrews 10:29
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; Hebrews 10:29
6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; Hebrews 10:35
7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; Hebrews 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; Hebrews 10:38

These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *John 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *John 3:18.

This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If we do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than we do not have eternal life according to the scriptures *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. These are the ones God gives eternal life and will not perish. Those who do not endure temptation to the end and do not continue believing and following God's Word do not receive eternal life according to the scriptures and perish with the unbelieving wicked because they departed the faith to become unbelievers.

Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Only those who believe and follow Gods' Word to the end receive everlasting life. Gods promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word always in the present moment.

.................

Now the above scriptures provided are a closed case as they state specifically that we can believe God's Word in the past tense and then fall away and depart the faith in the present moment and not be in a saved state before God.

My challenge to you then is to show from the scriptures alone that we can believe and follow God's Word yesterday, depart the faith to become an "unbeliever" today and still be in a saved state with God when God's Word directly says the opposite. Are you up for this challenge? According to the scriptures only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

Ezekiel 3:20-21 [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand. [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Ezekiel 18:20 [20], The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

1 Timothy 4:1 [1], Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Luke 8:13 [13] They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

............

The scriptures above clearly show if we fall away and depart the faith we are not in a saved state with God but have cast our lot in with the wicked and "Unbelievers" and will receive their reward. God's salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word.

Your welcome.

 

[TibiasDad]

Wrong again. There is NOTHING in the aorist that speaks of "assuming an ongoing or continuous concept". Flatly wrong.

I assert nothing about the aorist speaking to the ongoing of or continuance of believing, The aorist has to do with the " starting" of belief, thus the ingressive sense of the aorist. Believing, in itself, is naturally an ongoing action, for even you have stated this to LGW, saying:

Nonsense. All believing is in the present tense. Can't be otherwise.

Believing is not punctiliar in nature, but active and dynamic. Believing isn't a completed act, but necessarily a present tense active and logically ongoing, forward moving act. The only aspect of believing that can be punctiliar/aorist is its beginning and ending (if it does end).

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Ezekiel 3:20-21 [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand. [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Ezekiel 18:20 [20], The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

I'm guessing that FG2 is going to say that either the death is merely physical death that is "discipline" or a loss of reward, or, that this is Old Testament and doesn't apply to us now! Or perhaps he will surprise us with something else just as ridiculous.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

And YOU are ignoring (or flat out rejecting) John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13 about the PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 where John used the aorist tense (HAS GIVEN us) of possession of eternal life.

So, it's obvious that you do not understand the verses you have cited.

Everything seems obvious to you, doesn't it?

I have not ignored or rejected anything, I have taken all things into consideration to reconcile how such different expressions about eternal life being a future promise and being a present reality. I have presented several options about how it is a promise yet to be fulfilled and yet something that we possess as a certainty.

1) That when we have Christ (via the Holy Spirit) we have eternal life, for he is Eternal Life! Yet we do not experience eternal life until the redemption of our bodies. (Rom 8:23)

2) Eternal life is a promise yet to be fulfilled, yet by faith we possess the certainty of God being faithful to his word and thus can say with certainty that we will not perish but have life everlasting.

3) That Jesus's words are assuming the concept of it being a future promise and that is why the latter apostolic writings refer to it as a promise and hope from our perspective. Jesus sees the future as a present reality, and thus speaks of it as such, but we must see it as a yet future and unfulfilled hope that is nonetheless certain!

Your view, is hopelessly contradictory in its elements.


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I say it's obviously true."

Obvious should have evidence for its obviousness!

You're still stalling. How about this: truth ALWAYS refutes lies. Do you have the truth? Then prove it by refuting my statement.

The only evidence you have is your own proclamation, and with all due respect, that is meaningless, and thus worthless.

How are your own proclamations any more worthy? Where is your evidence? All you've got is your own claims. I have REFUTED your claims with Scripture.

Ah, so this is the meaning of obvious! Certainly in some instances, as in murdering, it might be true, but not necessarily.

I just gave you a PERFECTLY CLEAR example of WHY "has not" also means "has NEVER", and all you do is squirm and as "not necessarily". Amazing.

I just PROVED that the 2 phrases mean exactly the SAME THING. But go ahead and continue in your own obviuos denial of truth.

Jesus and John teach that anyone who speaks angrily with his brother is guilty of murder (Matt 5:21-22 , 1John 3:15), so while I have never taken someone's life at any time, I have been angry at my brother a time or two in the past, so it would depend on the circumstance whether I have ever murdered!

All of this is immaterial to the 2 phrases that I have just PROVED mean the same thing.

Likewise with believing. I can say that I used to believe X but no longer do so, yet, if believing in X is a condition for salvation, and I do not at this moment believe, then I am condemned because I have not believed but this does not necessarily mean I have never believed.

Did you read this aloud before you posted? Or better yet, did you have someone else read this before you posted? Because it's just very confused and convoluted.

Here's the deal, Doug. IF you used to believe X, then it CANNOT BE said of you that you "has not believed X", because you DID at one time. If you don't understand this, then it's clear you don't understand language.

Do you really NOT understand that "has not" is a PAST TENSE concept??

So, IF IF IF you EVER did believe X, then you CANNOT say you "have not believed X".

In fact, you HAVE believed X in the past.

So, to say "has not believed X", means you "have never believed X".

There. I just proved it again.

Moreover, scripture equates believing with obeying, and I have certainly obeyed at some points, and not obeyed at others so if the Lord calls me on the carpet for my disobedience and I question him as to why, he has every right to say " because you have not obeyed"! But this obviously doesn't mean I have never obeyed!

Again, immaterial to the 2 phrases.

You assume that because "never" is a possible meaning that it must always mean never.

All I've done is prove that "has not" means "has never". Period. And you can't refute this.

That is another example of logical error and cult-like argumentation.
Doug

Oh, this is rich! So now it's getting down to "cult-like", huh. Which cult did you have in mind, Doug? Or is this just more examples of your desperate attempts at ad hominem?