Use of the aorist

[FreeGrace2]

We are not saved only because we start to believe, we are saved because we are believing/believers!

You are in denial then.

Paul said to believe (in a point in time), which is "starting to believe" and you will be saved. Future tense. So, from that moment in time, starting to believe action, the one who is starting to believe will be saved. Guaranteed. That's what Paul communicated.

And yes, I do believe it is a promise, a promise for the future, a promise yet unrealized, but held by faith as if it has happened already!

Doug

And you still haven't addressed the present tense POSSESSION of eternal life from John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13, or the aorist tense giving (PAST TENSE) of eternal life in 1 John 5:11.

You have a lot to answer for. And no answers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:"I've denied nothing from Luke 8:13. But it seems you have, if you think that the verse speaks of losing salvation, which isn't even mentioned." Prove this with a post #. I've NEVER denied that the continuous present existed only for a while. In fact, I pointed out that continuous belief doesn't mean forever. That has always been my point. They ceased to believe.

Indeed and I disagreed with you by stating that your claims were not true and proved this by showing you denied the context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied.

Are you even reading what I post? Seems not. Well, do it. Of course I acknowledge the context of Luke 8:13. Yes, soil #2 believed FOR A WHILE. There. Did you read THAT?

Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief.

Yep. That means "agree".

Context matters in application.

Yep. See above for explanation.

This has been brought to your attention many times now.

And I've addressed it every time. But you need to read my posts to know that.

The scripture by itself proves that the concept of once saved always saved is not biblical and proves this scripture is in harmony with everything that has been shared with you in this thread.

Your claim is empty. Show me any verse that communicates very clearly that salvation is conditioned on your works, which you have repeatedly said.

And show me any verse that communicates very clearly that salvation can be lost.

I've repeatedly asked for the single best and more clear verse that communicates these things, and you have FAILED repeatedly to do that. Why?

If you say you agree with what has been presented here then your agreeing that once saved always saved is not biblical.

You have NOT shown that Luke 8:13 teaches that salvation can be lost.

If you agree that OSAS is not biblical what are you arguing about?

Good grief! If you would bother reading my posts, you would have known way before now that I condemn the teaching that salvation can be lost. And Jesus clearly taught OSAS in John 10:28. Where have you been?

There is no failing anything my side dear friend as the aorist does not effect what is being shared with you so your comment here is simply a distraction.

Your FAILURE is to provide even one verse that clearly communicates that salvation can be lost.

1 JOHN 5:11 JOHN 5:24, 6;47 and 1 JOHN 5:13 are all in harmony with the 30+ that have already been shared in post # 202 linked and the Greek that disagrees with you in JOHN 3:36.

This is just delirious. 1 John 5:11 tells us that we HAVE BEEN GIVEN eternal life. That shows a past completed action. So don't tell me the Greek disagrees with me. That's just nuts.

Please see post # 202 linked

If you had been reading any of my posts, you would have seen my REFUTATION of that post.

So that there is no misunderstandings let me tell you exactly what I believe so you do not make these unfounded comments in the future. I believe we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

So now you're flip-flopping. You have repeatedly said salvation is by "following God's Word". I even accused your view of that of the Pharisees, who were totally a works salvation theology.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Please, please please quote me the single most clear verse that makes this clear. Note: I am not asking for specific wording, but I am asking for specifically clear teaching."

How about many scriptures showing that if a person stops believing (present tense) then they forfeit the conditions of eternal life ?

1. REPENTANCE
(Matthew 3:2; Matthew 4:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 13:3; Act of the Apostles 2:38; Act of the Apostles 3:19; Act of the Apostles 8:22; Act of the Apostles 17:30; Revelation 3:19),

None of these speaks of losing salvation. And I asked for the "single most clear verse" and you just haul out a wheelbarrow load.

2. CONFESSION OF SIN
(1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:1; Proverbs 28:13) and of course all of the above are acts of believing God's Word and are linked into

Confession of sin isn't a condition of salvation.

3. FAITH IN GOD'S WORD (present moment John 3:15-16; 18; 36; Romans 1:16; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 14:23; James 2:17-26; Romans 3:31).

None of these verses discusses loss of salvation.

All of the above are conditions to receiving eternal life.

That is a fantasy. In fact NONE of them do. Maybe you haven't read any of these verses like you don't read my posts.

I asked for your "single best verse" that teaches loss of salvation, and you give me 3 subjects that aren't even conditions for salvation.

But that does say a lot, in and of itself.

If we forfeit these conditions we forfeit God's promises of eternal life as God's promise of eternal life is only to those who believe and follow his Word *John 10:26-27 in the present moment.

Yet, in this VERY POST (see? I read your posts) you quoted Eph 2:8,9 that PROVES that salvation is by faith only, and NOT OF WORKS. So now you've flipped-flopped again and it's back to "follow His Word", which is a human effort.

For example if we once believed and followed Gods' Word yesterday and depart the faith today to become an "unbeliever" then we are no longer believing and following Gods' Word and therefore God's promises do not apply. Let's consider what God's Word says on this topic...

This nonsense is completely refuted by John 3:18 and 2Thess 2:12 which says condemnation is for those who "have not believed". The Bible SAYS NOTHING about those who "used to believe" will be condemned. So why do you believe such nonsense?

Well, I've refuted enough of your fav verses. Meaning, YOUR take on them. Verses can't be refuted, as you well know.

But you have shown a very disturbing misunderstanding of many many verses. Add to that your serious denial and no wonder your views are what they are.

I hope that helps.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The aorist has to do with the " starting" of belief, thus the ingressive sense of the aorist.

It seems you view the aorist tense like trying to start a car. First, you insert the key. Then, you turn the key. Then you WAIT until the engine fires up. ONLY then has the car STARTED.

So you view salvation in the same WAY? That's weird. Believing is the condition for salvation. And believing can't be chopped up like when you start your car.

The aorist speaks to a moment in time action. That's all. So "starting to believe" is simply WHEN one initially believes. We call it saving faith.

It's NOT a process, like when you try to start your car. So quit thinking that way.

Believing, in itself, is naturally an ongoing action, for even you have stated this

Of course it is. I explained that very clearly.

Believing is not punctiliar in nature, but active and dynamic.

I never said it was punctilio in nature. You're just dodging the clear issue here. When believing is in the aorist tense, it is speaking of WHEN a person began to believe.

That point in time when they placed their faith in Christ. THAT is punctiliar. And THAT is what the aorist speaks to.

And people are saved WHEN they punctiliarly place their faith in Christ for savlation. However, it is obvious to any clear thinking objective person that such faith continues on. So what? The Bible says salvation comes from the PUNCTILIAR action of saving faith. There are NO verses that teach that ONLY "ongoing continuous belief" saves.

Believing isn't a completed act, but necessarily a present tense active and logically ongoing, forward moving act.

I'm not interested in your opinions, but what Scripture says. Acts 16:31 teaches that one WILL BE saved from a PUNCTILIAR action of belief. Deal with it.

The only aspect of believing that can be punctiliar/aorist is its beginning and ending (if it does end).
Doug

Yes. And we are saved by that PUNCTILIAR act. Paul SAID so. Deal with it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And YOU are ignoring (or flat out rejecting) John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13about the PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of eternal life. And 1 Jn 5:11 where John used the aorist tense (HAS GIVEN us) of possession of eternal life."

Everything seems obvious to you, doesn't it?

Can you just focus on the verses, and leave your opinions out of this?

I have not ignored or rejected anything, I have taken all things into consideration to reconcile how such different expressions about eternal life being a future promise and being a present reality.

You haven't yet reconciled anything.

I have presented several options about how it is a promise yet to be fulfilled and yet something that we possess as a certainty.

None of them are even reasonable.

1) That when we have Christ (via the Holy Spirit) we have eternal life, for he is Eternal Life! Yet we do not experience eternal life until the redemption of our bodies. (Rom 8:23)

2) Eternal life is a promise yet to be fulfilled, yet by faith we possess the certainty of God being faithful to his word and thus can say with certainty that we will not perish but have life everlasting.

3) That Jesus's words are assuming the concept of it being a future promise and that is why the latter apostolic writings refer to it as a promise and hope from our perspective. Jesus sees the future as a present reality, and thus speaks of it as such, but we must see it as a yet future and unfulfilled hope that is nonetheless certain!

Your view, is hopelessly contradictory in its elements.

If my view is so "hopelessly contradictory", how come you CAN'T explain what is actually contradictory? All you've got is vague statements.

Can't you provide any clear explanations?

I HAVE explained how the Bible teaches "eternal life". There are 2 concepts. One regards the gift, which is a PRESENT TENSE POSSESSION of believers. That is clear from the verses I've already shared. In fact, 1 John 5:11 shows that it is a gift that HAS BEEN GIVEN to believers.

Second, eternal life is the expression of the reality of eternity. We will experience that after physical death.

And your 3 points above generally agree with my explanation.

Yet, you claim my view is "hopelessly contradictory".

Are you aware you just indicted yourself and your own view?

 

[TibiasDad]

I said:
"I say it's obviously true."

You're still stalling. How about this: truth ALWAYS refutes lies. Do you have the truth? Then prove it by refuting my statement.


How are your own proclamations any more worthy? Where is your evidence? All you've got is your own claims. I have REFUTED your claims with Scripture.


I just gave you a PERFECTLY CLEAR example of WHY "has not" also means "has NEVER", and all you do is squirm and as "not necessarily". Amazing.

I just PROVED that the 2 phrases mean exactly the SAME THING. But go ahead and continue in your own obviuos denial of truth.


All of this is immaterial to the 2 phrases that I have just PROVED mean the same thing.


Did you read this aloud before you posted? Or better yet, did you have someone else read this before you posted? Because it's just very confused and convoluted.

Here's the deal, Doug. IF you used to believe X, then it CANNOT BE said of you that you "has not believed X", because you DID at one time. If you don't understand this, then it's clear you don't understand language.

Do you really NOT understand that "has not" is a PAST TENSE concept??

So, IF IF IF you EVER did believe X, then you CANNOT say you "have not believed X".

In fact, you HAVE believed X in the past.

So, to say "has not believed X", means you "have never believed X".

There. I just proved it again.


Again, immaterial to the 2 phrases.


All I've done is prove that "has not" means "has never". Period. And you can't refute this.


Oh, this is rich! So now it's getting down to "cult-like", huh. Which cult did you have in mind, Doug? Or is this just more examples of your desperate attempts at ad hominem?

1) You have proven nothing!

2) In order to prove “never”, you have to demonstrate that the point of origin for the perfect tense is the beginning of the unbelievers life. That cannot be proven, for if it were, the “never” would be so “obvious” that it would always be translated as “because you have never believed” instead of “because you have not believed”! You strain the Greek grammar beyond the means of the tense! If it were not so, you would have provided credible Greek grammars that support your position. The point of reference is the point of unbelief’s commencement, plain and simple. So if we “believe for awhile” but have now ceased to believe, the “you have not believed” is from the point that believing stops and disbelief begins again!

3)Yes, cult-like! And thus isn’t the first time I’ve pointed this out! I see the same tactics used by the JW’s in their door to door presentations. They refuse to deal with text itself, both in the specific context of the particular passage and in the context of the rest scriptural evidence about the same topic. They are always trying to shift the attention away from the question at hand instead of dealing with the specific point! I’ve been writing and teaching about the JW’s for nearly 35 years and have seen these tactics used time and time again. I am not saying that what you are teaching is cult-like, even though I disagree with you as much as I do them, but your methodology is exactly like that of your average door-knocking JW.


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) You have proven nothing!

You are dreaming. I PROVED that you "have NOT committed murder" means the SAME THING as you"have NEVER committed murder".

Are you really going to argue that the 2 phrases are materially different?? What would be quite weird.

And you would have to prove that they are different materially. Can you do that?

If you CAN'T, then we will ALL know that John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 both phrases that say those who "have NOT believed" means the same thing as those who "have NEVER believed".

2) In order to prove “never”, you have to demonstrate that the point of origin for the perfect tense is the beginning of the unbelievers life.

Stop stalling!! I just did prove it. By my example about your not murdering anyone. It should be obvious to anyone that they both mean the same thing.

you're just hiding behind Greek grammar, but it doesn't hide you at all. You are as exposed as a new born baby.

That cannot be proven, for if it were, the “never” would be so “obvious” that it would always be translated as “because you have never believed” instead of “because you have not believed”!

lol. Ideas can ALWAYS be translated in different words or even word order. Just compare the NIV with the ESV. I use the NIV (1992 Ed) and my pastor uses the ESV, and guess what!! Even with some different words, I find that both versions are saying the exact same thing. So don't give me that jazz.

If you NEVER murdered anyone, it CAN be said that you "have not murdered anyone".
That doesn't take ANY Greek classes to understand that bit of obviousness.

You strain the Greek grammar beyond the means of the tense!

There is no "tense issue" anyway. The point is about the FACT that "not" means "never" UNLESS there is a specific time frame attached. And, neither John 3:18 nor 2 Thess 2:12 have any time frame attached.

You're going to have to prove that without any time frame reference, "not" and "never" cannot mean the same thing. Go to it! If you can.

But everyone knows you can't, because that's just impossible.

If it were not so, you would have provided credible Greek grammars that support your position.

Instead, since I'm not so smart as you in the Greek, I used an example in the English that totally PROVES my claim. And you still haven't shown it to be false.

The point of reference is the point of unbelief’s commencement, plain and simple.

lol. The point of reference is whether or not there is a time frame attached.

So if we “believe for awhile” but have now ceased to believe, the “you have not believed” is from the point that believing stops and disbelief begins again![/QUTOE]
Couldn't be more wrong. If you EVER did believe, you HAVE (past tense) believed.

How can you NOT understand this very simple concept?

3)Yes, cult-like! And thus isn’t the first time I’ve pointed this out!

I asked you which cult. And you just punt again. No answers.

I see the same tactics used by the JW’s in their door to door presentations. They refuse to deal with text itself

I DO deal with the text itself. It's you who balk at the facts.

And, as for the JW's, what a pathetic comparison. This really shows how shallow your understanding of my position even is.

 

[TibiasDad]

I never said it was punctilio in nature. You're just dodging the clear issue here. When believing is in the aorist tense, it is speaking of WHEN a person began to believe.

That point in time when they placed their faith in Christ. THAT is punctiliar. And THAT is what the aorist speaks to.

What do you think I'm saying? That is precisely the point, the punctiliar moment is when believing began/started! Starting is punctiliar, believing is active, dynamic! And the active, dynamic act of believing is the only condition to receiving eternal life.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

you're just hiding behind Greek grammar, but it doesn't hide you at all. You are as exposed as a new born baby.

You said Greek grammar is everything! Now it's just a smoke screen!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Instead, since I'm not so smart as you in the Greek, I used an example in the English that totally PROVES my claim. And you still haven't shown it to be false.

The problem is that the NT is written in Greek, not English! Don't need to be smarter to figure it out, it is, how should I say it, oh, yes-- it's obvious!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said Greek grammar is everything! Now it's just a smoke screen!

Doug

I never said the grammar "was everything". But you sure are using it as a smoke screen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The problem is that the NT is written in Greek, not English!

It would be the height of insanity to claim that since they are different languages (so obvious), we just can't equate the two.

Of course we can. I don't care a whit if the Greek doesn't have a word for "never". I have already shown YOU that "not" and "never" are the same thing WHEN THERE IS NO TIME FRAME for context.

Now, IF IF IF you ever DID murder someone, let's say, in 1990, then you could say that you "have not murdered" since 1991, even though you DID murder the year before.

See how time frame context works? Maybe not. But that would be your problem.

Don't need to be smarter to figure it out, it is, how should I say it, oh, yes-- it's obvious!

Doug

yes, it sure is!! And I just keep proving it over and over with a perfectly good example of how "not" and "never" equate. When there is NO time frame reference.

And you, otoh, CANNOT disprove my claim.

So get out of your Greek grammar texts. They aren't helping you at all. Just deal with how "not" and "never" actually do equate when there is no time frame context.

I can hardly believe that I have to even make this point. I'll bet everyone who doesn't have an agenda to grind would agree with me.

And you CANNOT prove otherwise anyway.

Condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

That means that those who HAVE believed won't be condemned.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said: I hope that helps.

Well dear friend this is about where our discussion comes to an end. As I no longer see it fruitful to continue as all your doing now is denying the scriptures and the content of the posts shared with you.

Let's recap before we finish though.

1. You asked for scripture and have been provided scripture from both the old and new testament proving that Gods' salvation and promise of eternal life is "conditional" on us believing and following God's Word in the present moment to "now"

JOHN 3:36 [36], The [one] BELIEVING V-PPA-NMS in the Son HAS V-PIA-3S life eternal; the [one] however not OBEYING V-PPA-NMS the Son, not will see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:15-16 [15] that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

HEBREWS 5:9: “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

1 JOHN 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

MATTHEW 7:21 Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

HEBREWS 3:14 [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

HEBREWS 12:25 [25], See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:

2 PETER 2:20 [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

HEBREWS 2:3 [3], How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by them that heard him

COLOSSIANS 1:21-23 [21], And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled [22], In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless and unreproveable in his sight: [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

JAMES 1:12 [12], Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

MATTHEW 24:13 [13], But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 [1], But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

(more scripture here showing God’s salvation is conditional to believing and following His Word linked)

2. You have asked and have been provided scripture showing that if we believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have since departed the faith and fallen away and no longer believe and follow God's Word today (now) we are "now" unbelievers and no longer fulfill the conditions of those who God promises eternal life.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], for it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost,
[5], and have tasted the good word of god, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], for if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28], he that despised moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the son of god, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the spirit of grace?
[30], for we know him that has said, vengeance belongs to me, i will recompense, said the lord. and again, the lord shall judge his people.
[31], it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living god.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 [1], But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

LUKE 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

to be continued....

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said: I hope that helps.

Continued from the previous post...

3. You have asked for scripture and have been shown directly from the scriptures that Gods' Word (not mine) specifically states that all those who depart the faith will receive the same reward as the wicked and unbelievers of God's Word.

EZEKIEL 3:20-21 [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand. [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

EZEKIEL 18:20 [20], The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

HEBREWS 10:37-39 [37], for yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39], but we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost,
[5], and have tasted the good word of god, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

4. You have asked for scripture and have been shown directly from the scriptures that we receive the promise of eternal life today when we believe Gods' Word in the present moment but no one physically receives eternal life until after we have been tried in temptation and have been found faithful continuing to believe and follow Gods' Word to the end.

TITUS 1:1-2 [1], paul, a servant of god, and an apostle of jesus christ, according to the faith of god's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; [2], in hope of eternal life, which god, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], if you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

1 JOHN 3:3 [3], And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.

1 PETER 1:21 [21], Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in god.

HEBREWS 6:11 [11], And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope to the end

WE DO NOT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE UNTIL WE HAVE THROUGH FAITH ENDURED TEMPTATION TO THE END. ETERNAL LIFE IS CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO THE END...

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

HEBREWS 3:14 [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23 [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..... [23], if you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

JAMES 1:12 blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the lord has promised to them that love him.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], and he that overcomes [temptation], and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

1 JOHN 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the son, and in the father.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living god. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], for we are made partakers of christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end

................

Yet your response to all these scriptures which are Gods' Word is to hand waive them away as if they do not exist. Yet all these scriptures are Gods' Word not mine. You have the scriptures now so your argument is with God not me. So I will leave them with you and what you do with them is between you and God to work through. We will have to agree to disagree.

Keep in mind, I asked you earlier in this thread to provide a single scripture that says that those who believed and followed God's Word yesterday and no longer believe and follow God's Word today have eternal life in spite of God's Word directly stating that all unbelievers in the present tense are not in a saved state with God. I guess you were not up to the challenge. This is OK, as perhaps it will give you something to pray about.

The scriptures are true as written in ISAIAH 6:9-10 spoken by JESUS in MATTHEW 13:14-15 and PAUL in ACTS OF THE APOSTLES 28:26-27. Some people only want to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. As it is written For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears.

Thanks for the conversation but I have better things to do with my time now.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. I will leave you with the last word as it seems you need it more then I do.

Blessings all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well dear friend this is about where our discussion comes to an end. As I no longer see it fruitful to continue as all your doing now is denying the scriptures and the content of the posts shared with you.

What I've rejected, dear friend, is YOUR very faulty interpretation of Scriptures.

It is YOU who think that salvation can be lost. In SPITE of the FACT that Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. How you sleep at night beats me.

Let's recap before we finish though.

Oh, let's not, ok? I've had quite enough of your false doctrine and very faulty attempts at exegesis.

1. You asked for scripture and have been provided scripture from both the old and new testament proving that Gods' salvation and promise of eternal life is "conditional" on us believing and following God's Word in the present moment to "now"

Uh, what ELSE do you call an "untruth"? Oh, yeah. A lie.

JOHN 3:36 [36], The [one] BELIEVING V-PPA-NMS in the Son HAS V-PIA-3S life eternal; the [one] however not OBEYING V-PPA-NMS the Son, not will see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:15-16 [15] that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

HEBREWS 5:9: “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

1 JOHN 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

MATTHEW 7:21 Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

HEBREWS 3:14 [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

HEBREWS 12:25 [25], See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven:

2 PETER 2:20 [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

HEBREWS 2:3 [3], How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by them that heard him

COLOSSIANS 1:21-23 [21], And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled [22], In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless and unreproveable in his sight: [23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

JAMES 1:12 [12], Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

MATTHEW 24:13 [13], But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 [1], But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

(more scripture here showing God’s salvation is conditional to believing and following His Word linked)

How many times have I asked you for THE SINGLE BEST VERSE THAT TEACHES THAT SALVATION CAN BE LOST? And all you do is get out your fav list of verses that say NOTHING about losing salvation.

Are you capable of understanding my language?

2. You have asked and have been provided scripture showing that if we believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have since departed the faith and fallen away and no longer believe and follow God's Word today (now) we are "now" unbelievers and no longer fulfill the conditions of those who God promises eternal life.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], for it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost,
[5], and have tasted the good word of god, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], for if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28], he that despised moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the son of god, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the spirit of grace?
[30], for we know him that has said, vengeance belongs to me, i will recompense, said the lord. and again, the lord shall judge his people.
[31], it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living god.

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 [1], But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons

LUKE 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And, once again, I asked for your SINGLE BEST VERSE that teaches what you claim. And all you do is drag out your fav verses that DO NOT teach what you claim.

Are you not capable of following directions, or what?

If you would just quote ONE ONE ONE verse that BEST communicates what you claim, then I could address your BEST fav verse and show you how ridiculous your claim and understanding of that verse is. So you won't do it. You just flood the forum with verses that DON'T communicate what you claim they do.

to be continued....

Oh, no! Really? Haven't you had enough already?

You've been shown your errors so much, I'd think you'd have gotten very tired of it by now.

Maybe that's why you're finally bowing out.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Continued from the previous post...

OK. I'm game.

3. You have asked for scripture and have been shown directly from the scriptures that Gods' Word (not mine) specifically states that all those who depart the faith will receive the same reward as the wicked and unbelievers of God's Word.

EZEKIEL 3:20-21 [20], Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand. [21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

EZEKIEL 18:20 [20], The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

HEBREWS 10:37-39 [37], for yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39], but we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the holy ghost,
[5], and have tasted the good word of god, and the powers of the world to come,
[6], if they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the son of god afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

4. You have also been shown from scripture that we receive the promise of eternal life today when we believe Gods' Word in the present moment but no one physically receives eternal life until after we have been tried in temptation and have been found faithful continuing to believe and follow Gods' Word to the end.

TITUS 1:1-2 [1], paul, a servant of god, and an apostle of jesus christ, according to the faith of god's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; [2], in hope of eternal life, which god, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], if you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

1 JOHN 3:3 [3], And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure.

1 PETER 1:21 [21], Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in god.

HEBREWS 6:11 [11], And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope to the end

WE DO NOT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE UNTIL WE HAVE THROUGH FAITH ENDURED TEMPTATION TO THE END. ETERNAL LIFE IS CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO THE END...

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

HEBREWS 3:14 [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23 [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..... [23], if you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

JAMES 1:12 blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the lord has promised to them that love him.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], and he that overcomes [temptation], and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

1 JOHN 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. if that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the son, and in the father.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living god. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], for we are made partakers of christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end

................

Obviously (but uinfortunately not to you) none of these verses SAY what you think they say. And they CAN'T say what you claim, because if they did, Jesus couldn't have said what He did about recipients of eternal life.

Sorry. You lose.

Yet your response to all these scriptures which are Gods' Word is to hand waive them away as if they do not exist.

OK, so you DON'T understand my language then. I'll try to make this real clear to you.

I absolutely DO know they exist and I believe them. But it is YOU who treats some verses as if they don't exist, or you just flat out reject them out of hand.

Yet all these scriptures are Gods' Word not mine.

Of course they are God's and not yours. You seem to have quite a talent for saying the obvious. Except when it really counts. It is YOUR OWN OPINION about your verses that I REJECT.

You have the scriptures now so your argument is with God not me.

I have no argument with God. That would be quite stupid.

So I will leave them with you and what you do with them is between you and God to work through. We will have to agree to disagree.

When you run out of your non-defenses and have nothing to refute my points, it's good to leave the discussion.

Keep in mind, I asked you earlier in this thread to provide a single scripture that says that those who believed and followed God's Word yesterday and no longer believe and follow God's Word today have eternal life in spite of God's Word directly stating that all unbelievers in the present tense are not in a saved state with God.

Actually, I'm very tired of your "specific" demands. I have given you the LEEWAY to find your SINGLE BEST VERSE that communicates what you claim. And you can't even do that.

And yet you demand specific wording that you and everyone else knows doesn't exist.

But it doesn't require YOUR special wording demands to make the point. It only requires what is clearly communicated. And you can't do that.

I guess you were not up to the challenge.

Oh, this is a real laugh riot. You are the one who CAN'T provide a SINGLE BEST VERSE that says what you claim.

 

[TibiasDad]

I never said the grammar "was everything". But you sure are using it as a smoke screen.

I didn't make a direct quote of you, but here is the quote to which I was alluding:

Uh, no. The PIA [or the perfect, active indicative] of any verb is determined by the Greek grammar rules, just as in the English. Proper language follows grammar rules. Of course people can slaughter those rules, and many do. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the writers of Scripture to slaughter the Greek grammar rules.

So according to your own words, the parsing of Greek verbs is determined by "the Greek grammar", and Greek grammar determines "proper language", and the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the writers of Scripture "to slaughter the Greek grammar rules."
In short, you refute yourself!

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I never said the grammar "was everything". But you sure are using it as a smoke screen."

I didn't make a direct quote of you, but here is the quote to which I was alluding:

This is exactly what you DID post:
"Uh, no. The PIA [or the perfect, active indicative] of any verb is determined by the Greek grammar rules, just as in the English. Proper language follows grammar rules. Of course people can slaughter those rules, and many do. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the writers of Scripture to slaughter the Greek grammar rules."

So, as anyone can easily see, your charge is totally false. Why don't be more careful with your phony charges that you throw out casually.

You also missed the obvious point. It is YOU who slaughters the grammar rules. As I've pointed out many times. You still don't explain the present tense corrected, nor the aorist. And yet you claim to be trained. Yeah, sure.

So according to your own words, the parsing of Greek verbs is determined by "the Greek grammar", and Greek grammar determines "proper language", and the Holy Spirit didn't inspire the writers of Scripture "to slaughter the Greek grammar rules."
In short, you refute yourself!

Uh, no. My point stands. YOU slaughter the rules, just to fit your own theological agenda. YOU make claims about the present and aorist tense that AREN'T TRUE, just to defend your own views.

Well, your SDA buddy has finally realized he can't refute me, nor can he defend his own views from my questions and points.

Were you aware that your Nazarene church is so closely related to the SDA's? Interesting.

 

[TibiasDad]

This is exactly what you DID post:
"Uh, no. The PIA [or the perfect, active indicative] of any verb is determined by the Greek grammar rules, just as in the English. Proper language follows grammar rules. Of course people can slaughter those rules, and many do. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the writers of Scripture to slaughter the Greek grammar rules."

So, as anyone can easily see, your charge is totally false. Why don't be more careful with your phony charges that you throw out casually.

You also missed the obvious point. It is YOU who slaughters the grammar rules. As I've pointed out many times. You still don't explain the present tense corrected, nor the aorist. And yet you claim to be trained. Yeah, sure.

I was quoting you, FG2, you said that verbs are ruled by greek grammar (yes, "determined by the Greek grammar rules" means Greek grammar rules over the determination of meaning!). So yes you did say, in effect, that Greek grammar is everything when it comes to understanding the nuances of meanings and intent of a particular instance! Greek is not a one size fits all language; each usage has its own flavoring and slant of meaning. Yes, we do begin to find common patterns and general senses of meaning, but there is no necessary "always" answer! Context is the mold of verbal clay!


Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was quoting you, FG2, you said that verbs are ruled by greek grammar

OK, let's take this from the top, one more time. I never said "everything". But that's what you seem to ALWAYS do; make up stuff to suit yourself.

And you do that with the Bible as well.

But, let me ask you this: does the Greek grammar determine what a Greek verb means and what it does? Yes or no.

(yes, "determined by the Greek grammar rules" means Greek grammar rules over the determination of meaning!)

OK, sure. But that doesn't mean "everything".

So yes you did say, in effect, that Greek grammar is everything when it comes to understanding the nuances of meanings and intent of a particular instance!

OK, NOW you have to "move the goal posts" in order to save your embarrassment for getting caught making up stuff. By adding "in effect", you've change the goal posts.

Why didn't you just say so in the beginning, rather than the lie you said?

Greek is not a one size fits all language; each usage has its own flavoring and slant of meaning.

Are you suggesting that the verbs are subject to the whims of the "students" who took a Greek class or two?

Yes, we do begin to find common patterns and general senses of meaning, but there is no necessary "always" answer! Context is the mold of verbal clay!
Doug

I wonder if Wallace or Mantley or Mounce ever said that.

It is kinda interesting how "flexible" you NEED TO BE in order to defend your opinions about what the Greek says, though.

What I'm seeing is a desperate attempt at grabbing at straws.

The Greek verbs DON'T support your "flexible" interpretations.