Use of the aorist

[GDL]

It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!

I think Paul used such an illustration, but isn't the prize just rewards or a 2nd inheritance or something? And doesn't everyone get an inheritance no matter if they finish or not?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

OK, we've already been over this.

Indeed so why do you keep repeating yourself when shown your error here.

The only question left for you to answer is WHEN a person actually receives the gift of eternal life.

What for? I am not arguing about when a person receives eternal life but how (believing). The scriptures are pretty clear about this question however so not sure why your asking this. We have the hope of eternal life now when we believe and follow God's Words. We receive eternal life after we have been tried and have endured temptation and continue believing and following.

Look at the scripture that links also to JOHN 3:15-18 that we were discussing earlier but continuing in v36 in the Greek ...

JOHN 3:36 [36], ο πιστευων (V-PPA-NMS) εις τον υιον εχει (V-PIA-3S) ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων (V-PPA-NMS) τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον

JOHN 3:36 [36], The [one] believing V-PPA-NMS in the Son has V-PIA-3S life eternal; the [one] however not obeying V-PPA-NMS the Son, not will see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Note: believing (πιστευων) and obeying (απειθων) here are both present participle active verbs nominative masculine singular to believing and obeying JESUS. Therefore those who are believing and following JESUS has (εχει present indicative active) eternal life. JOHN 3:36 continues from and links very nicely and consistently with what was being shared with you earlier from JOHN 3:16 and JOHN 3:18. Therefore it is those who are believing and obeying JESUS in the now (present moment) that have eternal life. Not those who believed and followed God's Word yesterday and no longer believe and follow God's Word today. Now notice in the same scripture, those who are "not obeying" (or believing) ἀπειθῶν (PPA) "not will see life but the wrath of God abides on him" (ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον) links back to condemnation in John 3:18 link here to those who are not believing present tense. Therefore those who have received God's promise of eternal life are those who are believing and following Gods' Word now in the present.

We have looked at the Greek above now let's add a few more scriptures to the conversation shall we? As demonstrated above we have the promise and hope of eternal life today and now when we are believing and obeying Gods' Word in the present moment now. None however receive eternal life until we have been tried and have endured temptation and found continuing in the faith believing and obeying Gods' Word.

Let's look at the scriptures...

Salvation is God's work in us as we continue in the faith, believing and following God's Word *PHILIPPIANS 2:13; 1 JOHN 3:3-10. This salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word *JOHN 8:31-36. We can know if we are believing and following God's Word not not believing and following God's Word *1 JOHN 2:3-4 This difference between the children of God and the children of the devil is the fruit we bear *MATTHEW 7:22-23. Those who have been born again do not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:9. Those who practice sin are the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:10.

Every temptation that comes to us to sin is a choice that all of us must make. JESUS is our example (MATTHEW 4:1-11). Our choice is do we continue to BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD or do we give in to temptation and sin. If we choose to continue to BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD then God will work in us and give us the power to follow him and make a way of escape for us so we do not sin *1 CORINTHIANS 10:13. As the scriptures teach we must pray and watch *MATTHEW 26:41; LUKE 21:34-36; MATTHEW 6:9-13, persevere, continue to believe and follow God and not continue in sin *1 JOHN 3:6-9 to be faithful unto the end *HEBREWS 3:14. Our hope of salvation is now as we believe and follow God's Word. This hope is conditional on believing and following God's Word to the end and not falling away into sin *HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 6:4-8 and no longer believing and following God's Word which is our choice. We can choose to follow God today and choose not to follow God and sin. God will give save us from our sins if we continue in his Word *JOHN 8:31-36. If we do not continue in God's Word then we are no longer following God *JOHN 10:26-27.

WE HAVE THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE TODAY WHEN WE BELIEVE..

TITUS 1:1-2 [1], Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT, and the acknowledging of THE TRUTH WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS; [2], IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

TITUS 3:7 [7], That being justified by his grace, WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

COLOSSIANS 1:23 [23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH grounded and settled, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

1 JOHN 3:3 [3], And every man that has this HOPE IN HIM purifies himself, even as he is pure.

1 PETER 3:15 [15], But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU with meekness and fear

1 PETER 1:21 [21], Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; THAT YOUR FAITH AND HOPE MIGHT BE IN GOD.

HEBREWS 6:11 [11], And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of HOPE TO THE END

BUT WE DO NOT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE UNTIL WE HAVE THROUGH FAITH ENDURED TEMPTATION TO THE END. ETERNAL LIFE IS CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD TO THE END...

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

HEBREWS 3:14 [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST TO THE END

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But HE THAT SHALL ENDURE TO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23 [12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins..... [23], IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, WHICH YOU HAVE HEARD, AND WHICH WAS PREACHED TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE TO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, YOU HAVE YOUR FRUIT TO HOLINESS, AND THE END EVERLASTING LIFE.

JAMES 1:12 BLESSED IS THE MAN THAT ENDURES TEMPTATION: FOR WHEN HE IS TRIED, HE SHALL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE, WHICH THE LORD HAS PROMISED TO THEM THAT LOVE HIM.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], AND HE THAT OVERCOMES [temptation], AND KEEPS MY WORKS TO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations

1 JOHN 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF THAT WHICH YE HAVE HEARD FROM THE BEGINNING SHALL REMAIN IN YOU, YE ALSO SHALL CONTINUE IN THE SON, AND IN THE FATHER.

HEBREWS 3:12-14 [12], TAKE HEED, BRETHREN, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], FOR WE ARE MADE PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST UNTO THE END

..............

CONCLUSION: Only those who are believing and obeying God's Word have the hope of eternal life and God's promise of eternal life as we are believing and following what Gods' Word says in the present moment. Those who are not believing and obeying now in the present moment, even if they believed yesterday are not believing and obeying now which is the condition for receiving God's promise of eternal life. God's wrath and condemnation is on all those who are not believing and obeying in the present moment (now). We do not receive eternal life until we have endured temptation to the end and continue believing and following Gods' Word. God's promise of eternal life is conditional to believing and following Gods' Word. Gods' sheep hear His voice (the Word) and follow it. Those who do not hear and do not follow are not God's sheep *JOHN 10:26-27.

May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well, that was also my point. All belief is continuous present. It can't be otherwise. Even Jesus made that clear with the 2nd soil in Luke 8:13. But He also added "for a while", proving that even PIA 'belief' doesn't last for some people.

We have been bringing it up with you dear friend although you do not seem to be listening. The context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied. Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application. This has been brought to your attention many times now. You seem to be ignoring it. LUKE 8:13 supports everything that has been shared here with you. It does not support a view of once saved always saved. That is unbiblical and proven false in this very scripture and all through the rest of the bible.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Acts16:31 again (the merry-go-round discussion lands on Acts16:31 again):

NKJ Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe (Aorist Active Imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Future Passive Indicative), you and your household."

Believe in the Aorist Active Imperative: (quotes are from Wallace GGBtheB)

1. The grammatical structure of Acts16:31: "Imperative + and + Future Indicative" fits the Conditional Imperative category of Imperatives. Thus, this can simply be saying, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved.

A. From there we could look at the Aorist tense parsing of the Imperative verb for more information.

B. If we take the Aorist as a Constative Aorist – “by far the most common of use of the Aorist,” then it’s describing belief only “in summary fashion, without focusing on the beginning or end of the action specifically.” The action can be iterative, durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. “It places the stress on the fact of the occurrence, not its nature.’ SO, if we take the Aorist tense as Constative, we’re being told nothing about the action of the Aorist Belief, other than it is being commanded here. SO, we would need to know about Biblical Belief from other instruction.

C. If we take the Aorist as Ingressive – which “is quite common” – then it can be telling us of the “beginning of an action or the entrance into a state.” I see mainly from English grammar resources that “believe” is a stative verb, so the Ingressive would be speaking of entrance into the state of Biblical Belief, whatever this is. SO, once again, we would need to know more about Biblical Belief from other instruction.

D. Conclusion: The Conditional Imperative would just be telling us, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. If the Aorist is interpreted as Constative, then Belief could be something repeated, lasting, or momentary, but we cannot derive this in this verse. If the Aorist is interpreted as Ingressive, then the focus of the command is to enter into the state of [Biblical] Belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ, whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is. Whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is, it eventuates in a future of being saved (again, whatever saved means).

2. If we interpret the Aorist Active Imperative as simply being a Volitional Clause, within the Acts16:31 close context of the specific and obvious urgency of the matter, then the Imperative is telling us of this specific & urgent matter and the entrance into Biblical Belief, whatever this is, and the future (whenever this is) of being saved (whatever saved means) as its solution.

3. SO, if Volitional or Conditional, or both overlapping, what is the state of [Biblical] Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it something repeated, continuous, or momentary? Acts16:31 doesn’t say. But it certainly implies that the state of Belief is something within which being saved in the future takes place. SO, our choices are: (1) enter into the state & remain there and you will be saved (durative) or (2) enter into the state and leave and reenter and leave and reenter and… the state and you will be saved (iterative) or (3) enter into the state and leave and do not reenter and you will be saved (momentary however long the moment is?) or (4) enter into the state for a moment and who cares after that and you will be saved (typical very brief moment). Again, Acts16:31 doesn’t specifically say which one is the best interpretation, but only 1 sounds logical to me, especially since the Lord Jesus Christ is the current and eternal King of Kings & Lord of Lords with all authority in Heaven and upon earth forever. Really, what’s the debate here?

Great post GDL, this is why I believe it is good to study single scriptures but you cannot make a doctrine out of one scripture verse of by cherry picking scripture out of context like some like to do. What makes it clear and without doubt in what the Greek in ACTS 16:31 is not clear on are the rest of the scriptures within the bible on subject matter and that is where we get a clear view that believing and obeying Gods' Word in the present tense always to the end are conditions of eternal life. At the end of the day the truth of Gods' Word can only be revealed to babes who prayerfully seek JESUS for it through his Spirit *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 17:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27. This is God's new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. After all it was the humble fisherman that God revealed his truth over the learned Scribes and Pharisees in the days of Jesus. According to the scriptures nothing is new under the sun those who do not want to know God's Word continue to close their eyes and put their fingers in their ears in fulfillment of the scriptures in ISAIAH 6:9-10 spoken and repeated by JESUS in MATTHEW 13:14-15 and Paul in ACTS OF THE APOSTLE 28:26-27

God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am doing nothing of the sort! I have done exactly as you have done in your last paragraph. However, that believing must be started to be saved in the the future is not to say that only starting to believe is the condition for salvation. Believing is the condition, not the starting itself.

From where do you get the notion that there is a difference between believing and "starting to belielve"?

The phrase "starting to believe" is merely a way of saying TO BELIEVE.

But to be believing one must start believing!

There is no difference. You're making up stuff.

That is the emphasis of using the ingressive aorist. It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!
Doug

Once again, if your theory of "continual believing" is a condition for salvation, then neither Paul nor Jesus would have been accurate to ever use the aorist tense in relation to salvation.

The aorist gives no such emphasis. And that would be very wrong if your theory were correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts16:31 again (the merry-go-round discussion lands on Acts16:31 again):

NKJ Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe (Aorist Active Imperative) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Future Passive Indicative), you and your household."

Believe in the Aorist Active Imperative: (quotes are from Wallace GGBtheB)

1. The grammatical structure of Acts16:31: "Imperative + and + Future Indicative" fits the Conditional Imperative category of Imperatives. Thus, this can simply be saying, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved.

So far, nothing to see here.

A. From there we could look at the Aorist tense parsing of the Imperative verb for more information.

B. If we take the Aorist as a Constative Aorist – “by far the most common of use of the Aorist,” then it’s describing belief only “in summary fashion, without focusing on the beginning or end of the action specifically.” The action can be iterative, durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. “It places the stress on the fact of the occurrence, not its nature.’ SO, if we take the Aorist tense as Constative, we’re being told nothing about the action of the Aorist Belief, other than it is being commanded here. SO, we would need to know about Biblical Belief from other instruction.

No we don't. The very use of the aorist proves that any "continual action" isn't in view at all. If this theory about "continual belief" were necessary for salvation, it would have been quite misleading and WRONG for either Jesus or Paul to ever use the aorist when discussing how to be saved.

C. If we take the Aorist as Ingressive – which “is quite common” – then it can be telling us of the “beginning of an action or the entrance into a state.” I see mainly from English grammar resources that “believe” is a stative verb, so the Ingressive would be speaking of entrance into the state of Biblical Belief, whatever this is. SO, once again, we would need to know more about Biblical Belief from other instruction.

No, we wouldn't. The very fact that none of these aorists indicates any statement about time frame shows that time frame isn't necessary.

D. Conclusion: The Conditional Imperative would just be telling us, If you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will be saved. If the Aorist is interpreted as Constative, then Belief could be something repeated, lasting, or momentary, but we cannot derive this in this verse. If the Aorist is interpreted as Ingressive, then the focus of the command is to enter into the state of [Biblical] Belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ, whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is. Whatever Biblical Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ is, it eventuates in a future of being saved (again, whatever saved means).

So far, you're not making your own case.

2. If we interpret the Aorist Active Imperative as simply being a Volitional Clause, within the Acts16:31 close context of the specific and obvious urgency of the matter, then the Imperative is telling us of this specific & urgent matter and the entrance into Biblical Belief, whatever this is, and the future (whenever this is) of being saved (whatever saved means) as its solution.

Still not making your case.

3. SO, if Volitional or Conditional, or both overlapping, what is the state of [Biblical] Belief in the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it something repeated, continuous, or momentary? Acts16:31 doesn’t say.

That fact shows that if one of these "states" were necessary, neither Jesus or Paul would have used the aorist in regard to salvation.

But it certainly implies that the state of Belief is something within which being saved in the future takes place.

The statement clearly says that salvation FOLLOWS belief. That's all.

SO, our choices are: (1) enter into the state & remain there and you will be saved (durative) or (2) enter into the state and leave and reenter and leave and reenter and… the state and you will be saved (iterative) or (3) enter into the state and leave and do not reenter and you will be saved (momentary however long the moment is?) or (4) enter into the state for a moment and who cares after that and you will be saved (typical very brief moment). Again, Acts16:31 doesn’t specifically say which one is the best interpretation, but only 1 sounds logical to me, especially since the Lord Jesus Christ is the current and eternal King of Kings & Lord of Lords with all authority in Heaven and upon earth forever. Really, what’s the debate here?

There is no real debate. The verse is clear enough: salvation follows belief. That simple.

If one believes, they will be saved. All you've done here is muddy the water with a lot of "possible" uses of the aorist, but can't determine which use either Paul or Jesus meant.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We have been bringing it up with you dear friend although you do not seem to be listening.

What things "seem to be" to you isn't necessarily fact.

The context to the PIA of belief or continuous present in LUKE 8:13 is to "for a while" to which it is applied.

Of course.

Then when temptation come they fall away into unbelief. Context matters in application

Again, of course.

This has been brought to your attention many times now. You seem to be ignoring it.

Well, maybe you should WAKE UP and notice my response to ALL of your points here. And I'm not changing my views either. So you just haven't been very perceptive.

LUKE 8:13 supports everything that has been shared here with you. It does not support a view of once saved always saved.

Let me tell you what it doesn't support. The notion that those who don't continue to believe will lose their salvation. Jesus says nothing about that. He only explains WHY some believers fall away from their faith. There is nothing about losing salvaton. That is just presumption.

That is unbiblical and proven false in this very scripture and all through the rest of the bible.

Can you explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life? Jesus said He GIVES eternal life to His sheep. So, WHEN does that occur? Specifically.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Can you explain WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life? Jesus said He GIVES eternal life to His sheep. So, WHEN does that occur? Specifically.

Your denial of the scriptures shared with you in regards to LUKE 8:13 and elsewhere is noted but not agreed to or accepted as we should believe the scriptures which are God's Word. Your other question has already been answered. Please read post # 202 seems you missed it.

 

[TibiasDad]

What do I have to prove? All English translations have "has not believed". So, can you prove that the phrase CANNOT mean "has NEVER believed"?

No English translation, to my knowledge, has the word " never", nor does the Greek have the word never in it, so that is all the proof that we need. You are the one that proposed the "never" translation, so it is your burden to support your assertions. It isn't de facto truth because you claim it is! You offer no evidence to support your assertions, and there is nothing to suggest that it might remotely be true, so we have nothing to disprove.

Doug

 

[bcbsr]

I think Paul used such an illustration, but isn't the prize just rewards or a 2nd inheritance or something? And doesn't everyone get an inheritance no matter if they finish or not?

Good point. Which calls into question whether such an illustration is referring to salvation, seeing as Paul, both in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2 makes the point that getting saved is nothing you can boast about. But if it's a reward for your efforts, that's something you can boast about and thus the contradiction. And as such TibiasDad's analogy doesn't hold.

 

[bcbsr]

It would be the same if I were to say the one who finishes the race will win the prize, so run the race to win, then starting the race is necessary, but starting does not win the race, finishing the race does!
Doug

What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

I have not been following your conversation so please forgive me if I am out of place here but I think if you read Doug's post it is not talking about winning the race but finishing the race to win the prize.

God bless

 

[TibiasDad]

From where do you get the notion that there is a difference between believing and "starting to belielve"?

The phrase "starting to believe" is merely a way of saying TO BELIEVE.

Acts 16:31 is a unique point, as the beginning of anything is, because there is only one "first time" experience. The start of the jailer's life as a believer is the pivot point in his life, going from the state of not believing to the state of believing is the stress point of the ingressive aorist. The start point of believing is singular and punctiliar; the believing that began at that punctiliar moment is an active, dynamic and assumed to be ongoing by the nature of believing being a continuous concept. What happened with the jailer? He started (punctiliar/aorist) believing (active and assumed by its nature to go on, for there is no such thing as inactive believing).

Doug

There is no difference. You're making up stuff.

Once again, if your theory of "continual believing" is a condition for salvation, then neither Paul nor Jesus would have been accurate to ever use the aorist tense in relation to salvation.

The aorist gives no such emphasis. And that would be very wrong if your theory were correct.

 

[bcbsr]

I have not been following your conversation so please forgive me if I am out of place here but I think if you read Doug's post it is not talking about winning the race but finishing the race to win the prize.

God bless

It's a race he's talking about. You're finishing to win the prize. So to him apparently eternal life is a prize that you win and thus you can boast of "winning" eternal life for yourself. This is contrast not only to Eph 2:8,9 but also to Romans 4 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about"

"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

 

[TibiasDad]

What you're alleging is that salvation is a prize that you gain by winning a race. Which makes it a matter of your effort and therefore something you can boast about. That is a significantly different concept of soteriology than that described in the Bible which states, "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

My illustration was not intended as a theological picture or statement, I just replaced the words and idea of the Acts 16:31 account with another set of images to illustrate the idea of starting in contrast with the on going action after the fact!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There is no difference. You're making up stuff.

Are you saying that my statement, "but to be believing one must start believing", is false? That there doesn't have to be a starting point of believing at some point in the past to be believing today?

If they are the same thing, demonstrate it! Prove your point!

There is a huge difference between the starting point of believing and believing at a subsequent point. The day that you started believing in Christ is not today, Aug 28, 2020. Your faith does not start every day, there is only one first time, one starting point, every other day is a continuation of what began that first moment in the past.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

On the basis of the FACT that I fully understand the Engish language. And that IS CLEAR ENOUGH.

Now, if you want to argue about clarity, the BURDEN is on you to prove that the English isn't correct and the Greek says something else.

Which you know isn't the case.

The English does not have "never" in the translation! So you apparently don't understand the English either! Besides, wasn't it you that said "the Greek grammar is all the matters", or something to that effect? So which is more important, the English or the Greek?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I'm NOT giving you a pass here.

Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present participle) him who sent me HAS (PIA) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present participle) HAS (PIA) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life (aorist indicative), and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe (present participle) in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE (PIA) eternal life.


The ONLY remaining issue between us is your explanation of WHY Jesus and John used the PIA for possession of eternal life.

None of the verses speaks of a future promise, as you are insinuating. In fact, both Jesus and John say PLAINLY that eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION for believers.

Oh, and none of you guys have provided any verses that say PLAINLY that eternal life can be revoked, removed, cancelled, lost, forfeited, misplaced, or any other description of no longer having possession of it.

Titus 1:1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior...

Titus 3:5....He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life

Jude 20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

1John 2:24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

Gal 3:18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise

2 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, in keeping with the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,

2Pet 1:3His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

2Cor 1:1Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Heb 6:12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

These are but a few of the scriptural references that what God has given us are promises which those "who purify [themselves] from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God" will ultimately receive!

Again, your quotations, while true, are only a minority of the verses in evidence and cannot be properly understood or interpreted in a vacuum or a bubble that insulates them from all the other references. If we take your position, and use these few verses to interpret all the others, then we have a very strong contradiction in the verses that speak of eternal life as a promise, and many examples of this contradictory battle of words are written by John. But if the overwhelming number of references regard eternal life as one of God's many promises regarding our eternal destiny, then Jesus's words are meant to assume these present tense wordings as being possessed by faith in God's promises. Again, we cannot have eternal life if it is by faith, for we cannot hope for that which we already have! (Rom 8:24) We actually get eternal life when our bodies are fully redeemed in the resurrection! Until then, it is just a promise of God!

Now, in one sense, Jesus Christ is eternal life (1John 1:2), and when he lives in us, we possess eternal life, but this is just one aspect and not the whole reality.

Doug

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm NOT giving you a pass here.
Jesus and John stated the possession of eternal life in the PRESENT TENSE.

True but that is because "believing" is in the present tense. This is what has been shared with you from the beginning. Not sure why you cannot see this. If you no longer have belief then you no longer have salvation as believing is a condition of eternal life. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. If you fall away and depart the faith and do not endure temptation to the end then you are an unbeliever and will receive the reward of the wicked according to the scriptures.

 

[GDL]

Great post GDL, this is why I believe it is good to study single scriptures but you cannot make a doctrine out of one scripture verse of by cherry picking scripture out of context like some like to do. What makes it clear and without doubt in what the Greek in ACTS 16:31 is not clear on are the rest of the scriptures within the bible on subject matter and that is where we get a clear view that believing and obeying Gods' Word in the present tense always to the end are conditions of eternal life. At the end of the day the truth of Gods' Word can only be revealed to babes who prayerfully seek JESUS for it through his Spirit *John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 17:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27. This is God's new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow God's Word *Hebrews 8:11. After all it was the humble fisherman that God revealed his truth over the learned Scribes and Pharisees in the days of Jesus. According to the scriptures nothing is new under the sun those who do not want to know God's Word continue to close their eyes and put their fingers in their ears in fulfillment of the scriptures in ISAIAH 6:9-10 spoken and repeated by JESUS in MATTHEW 13:14-15 and Paul in ACTS OF THE APOSTLE 28:26-27

God bless

Thank you & many good points in your quoted post (and others).

The final 4 points I wrote re: the time concepts of that aorist imperative while thinking through the possibilities & writing them, gave me some more clarity on just how bad this one time belief concept is. I had a time graphic from Wallace's book in view while writing and it made things even more vivid.