Use of the aorist

[TibiasDad]

What is there left to discuss? Paul told the jailer that from the MOMENT he puts his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, he will be saved.

You posted this:
"Yes, it is a point in time! It can be nothing other than a point of particular reference. The question is to what is the point of reference referring? The ingressive points to the initiation point of believing. The cumulative points to the whole process and its end results."

You have NOT shown how either choice changes the fact that the jailer will be saved from the MOMENT he believes in Christ.

So, what's left to discuss?

1) This is the question I am discussing: The question is to what is the point of reference referring? The starting point of belief (my position), or the cumulative effect of the entire act of belief. (Which would tend to support your position.)
That you don't seem to think it makes any difference makes me wonder if you understand anything at all about it? It makes a difference!

2) What's left to discuss is the above question that you didn't even think existed! (Hint: it always has a ? at the end of the question) Or we could even discuss whether pistueo is telic or atelic.

This is what you posted:
"I would suggest, however, that this is an example of an ingressive use of the aorist. The ingressive uses the punctiliar nature of the aorist to express the beginning of something, the initial point of beginning to do the action of the verb, in this case, believing."
If there were actual evidence or proof, it wouldn't be a mere suggestion. And what you posted doesn't prove anything.


And that's MY point. Once there is belief, whether looking at it from the aorist or present tense, it always saves, seals, justifies.


And this doesn't change anything regarding saving faith, now does it.


There is no question in your post.

Again, your self-serving, narrow definition of a word, in this case " suggest", is inadequate. In the case of a debate, especially when it is an initial posting as my opening post was, "suggest" isn't a term of uncertainty, but of kindness and cordiality. I stated quite clearly my certainty of my conclusions and why! I suggest it to other readers because I am certain within my own thinking of my conclusions. If I were uncertain, I would have said something to the effect of, "I was wondering..." or, " I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly...".

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

1) This is the question I am discussing: The question is to what is the point of reference referring? The starting point of belief (my position), or the cumulative effect of the entire act of belief. (Which would tend to support your position.)

Frankly, I see no significant difference.

Maybe it's that you seem to think that belief is something that develops over time into a "full-blown" mature kind of action, as opposed to a "starting point" kind of belief that doesn't save.

That you don't seem to think it makes any difference makes me wonder if you understand anything at all about it? It makes a difference!

OK, now that you've said it, go ahead and explain how it makes a difference.

2) What's left to discuss is the above question that you didn't even think existed!

Of course there are questions that "exist" in the minds of people. But the issue is whether the questions are even relevant. Only you can prove that your question is.

(Hint: it always has a ? at the end of the question) Or we could even discuss whether pistueo is telic or atelic.

If you can show WHY that is important, sure. If you're just showing off, please don't bother.

Again, your self-serving, narrow definition of a word, in this case " suggest", is inadequate.

oh, lol. It was YOU that used the word. I only pointed it out.

In the case of a debate, especially when it is an initial posting as my opening post was, "suggest" isn't a term of uncertainty, but of kindness and cordiality. I stated quite clearly my certainty of my conclusions and why! I suggest it to other readers because I am certain within my own thinking of my conclusions. If I were uncertain, I would have said something to the effect of, "I was wondering..." or, " I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly...".
Doug[/QUOTE]
Just proceed to prove your claims, points, and whatever else you think is relevant.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Just one little tiny problem. There is no such thing as "the present tense aorist". That is completely in error. And the word "believing" is a participle, not even a verb, but an adjective, which describes a person's actions. See post #4 that refutes Doug's OP.

Sorry late night post and wrong wording. I was not referring to a particular verse in my last post but making a general statement in support of God's promises being conditional to believing in the present tense.

God's promises and his gift of eternal life are all conditional on believing in the present tense and following God's Word. For example John 3:16 The word "believe" in this verse is a present participle verb to believing or continuing to believe.

Example JOHN 3:15-16 GREEK applications

ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:15-16 (SBLGNT)15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. 16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of actively doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING. The original Greek translation is given in the Youngs Literal Translation of the Greek words

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

The continuing nature of SAVING FAITH is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

As shown above the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “WHOEVER CONTINUES BELIEVING IN HIM” MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

Too many scriptures to post here to show that God's promises are conditional to believing and following his Word. Happy to post them if your interested.

PS. I do not believe your post 4 refutes conditional salvation as there are too many scriptures to show your claims here are not true in my view.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said:
"believe (present indicative active) for a while," What you mean is that you cannot defend your erroneous idea about the present tense indicative active. And Luke 8:13 refutes your claims about it.

Not sure what your point is here. The scripture says...

Luke 8:13[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The within scripture context here is that a person can believe (present indicative active) "for a while". The present indicative active is to "for a while" then at a future point "when time of temptation comes fall away". That is they fall away from believing after a time in the future when temptation comes. It is the "for a while" that is context to present tense active of believing.

I would say that Luke 8:13 to believe (present indicative active) read to context refutes the position of once saved always saved.

So for me in summary context determines the application of believe (present indicative active). I have no problem with Luke 8:13

Blessings

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish.

If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know, that they shall never perish.

Those who believe possess eternal life (right now!- present tense). You think those who cease to believe will perish.

Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Hope you do not mind me throwing in some thoughts here. When Jesus says the "they" shall never perish in John 10:28, context needs to be considered as to who the "they" are that Jesus is talking to.

Let's define "they" by adding in the context.

John 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note the context here defines those who never perish and receive eternal life are to those who hear God's Word and follow God's Word v27. So the promise is to those who hear and follow what God says.

Why is this important? The promise of eternal life when linked to believing (present indicative active) in John 3:16 show that God's promises here of eternal life and "they" or those to whom these promises are given are to those believing and following Gods' Word.

............

Now moving on to the next part of your post asking for scripture to show that a person who ceased to believe will perish? Let's consider the following scriptures...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,
[5], AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOSE END IS TO BE BURNED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 links right in here but it is referring to those who were once Christians but fall away in to a life on known unrepentant sin receiving the same punishment as the above scriptures show v8....whose end is to be burned.

Note the following points pulled directly from HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Let now link this to Hebrews 10:26-39...

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 ...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have received a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If we do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than we do not have eternal life according to the scriptures *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. These are the ones God gives eternal life and will not perish. Those who do not endure temptation to the end and do not continue believing and following God's Word do not receive eternal life according to the scriptures and perish with the unbelieving wicked because they departed the faith to become unbelievers.

Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Only those who believe and follow Gods' Word to the end receive everlasting life. Gods promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.

God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry late night post and wrong wording.

No problem. We've all been there and done that.

I was not referring to a particular verse in my last post but making a general statement in support of God's promises being conditional to believing in the present tense.

But that is the error. All saving faith action is done in the present tense. So when the Bible says to believe in Christ, of course that can only mean in the present tense.

However, Paul refutes the idea that one MUST continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. He used the aorist tense for believing, and the result of believing in a past point of time STILL results in being saved.

There aren't any verses that teach that one must keep on believing in order to be saved.

Of course God wants all believers to continue to believe. Why wouldn't He? He wants all believers to be fruit bearers. But not all are.

God's promises and his gift of eternal life are all conditional on believing in the present tense and following God's Word.

Again, saving faith is ALWAYS accomplished in the present tense. But, you now added "and following God's Word". Please provide clear evidence for that addition for being saved.

For example John 3:16 The word "believe" in this verse is a present participle verb to believing or continuing to believe.

I have to say, "so what"? What does that prove?

Example JOHN 3:15-16 GREEK applications

To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of actively doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING. The original Greek translation is given in the Youngs Literal Translation of the Greek words

Except the present tense does NOT mean "continuing to .... whatever". It means this:

to believe RIGHT NOW.

to believe NOW.

to believe PRESENTLY.

That's what it means. It does NOT mean perpetual motion, which is what I am hearing you and Doug saying. iow, "keep on believing" to be saved.

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Still proving nothing more than believing in the RIGHT NOW in order to be saved.

The continuing nature of SAVING FAITH is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

Excuse me, but Paul actually DID use the aorist tense; in Acts 16:31. And in Romans 10:9. And Jesus Himself used the aorist tense for "drinking", a metaphor for belief in Himself for eternal life to a woman at a well in John 4.

As shown above the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “WHOEVER CONTINUES BELIEVING IN HIM” MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

Still doesn't prove anything. The present tense simply acknowledges that the action is occurring presently, or in the right now.

Too many scriptures to post here to show that God's promises are conditional to believing and following his Word. Happy to post them if your interested.

Of course the promise of salvation is conditional upon believing. But your addition of "and following His Word" needs evidence.

PS. I do not believe your post 4 refutes conditional salvation as there are too many scriptures to show your claims here are not true in my view.

Are you aware of what Jesus said in John 10:28? He made the most straightforward clear statement about eternal security that one can make.

He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And prior to that, He said that those who believe have (as in POSSESS RIGHT NOW) ETERNAL LIFE.

So we know that at the moment of belief in Christ, which action would obviously be a present tense action, HAS or possesses eternal life.

So the statement in John 10:28 applies from the MOMENT of saving faith.

Arminians believe that recipients of eternal life (saved people) can perish.

That is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Lord Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"believe (present indicative active) for a while," What you mean is that you cannot defend your erroneous idea about the present tense indicative active. And Luke 8:13 refutes your claims about it.

Not sure what your point is here.

It's real clear. Doug and you claim that one must continually believe in order to be saved. And that the present tense (Doug even emphasized the present indicative active) to mean "continually believe".

Yet, Jesus used the PIA for 'believe' and followed that immediately with "for a while", which clearly proves that the PIA doesn't mean "continually believe".

The scripture says...

Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The within scripture context here is that a person can believe (present indicative active) "for a while". The present indicative active is to "for a while" then at a future point "when time of temptation comes fall away". That is they fall away from believing after a time in the future when temptation comes. It is the "for a while" that is context to present tense active of believing.

Right. And it shows that the PIA does NOT mean "continually believing".

I would say that Luke 8:11 to believe (present indicative active) read to context refutes the position of once saved always saved.

Why would you say that? Can you explain yourself, instead of just throwing out these comments without any evidence or clarification?

So for me in summary context determines the application of believe (present indicative active). I have no problem with Luke 8:11
Blessings

If you believe that salvation can be lost, then you DO have a problem with what Jesus taught in John 10:28. A HUGE problem.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish.

If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know,that they shall never perish.

Those who believe possess eternal life (right now!- present tense). You think those who cease to believe will perish.

Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH."

Hope you do not mind me throwing in some thoughts here. When Jesus says the "they" shall never perish in John 10:28, context needs to be considered as to who the "they" are that Jesus is talking to.

Easy. Believers in Him. Who else would be given eternal life?

John 5:24 and 6:47 says those who believe have eternal life. So there is no mystery about who the "they" are in John 10:28. In context, they are "His sheep".

Let's define "they" by adding in the context.

John 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note the context here defines those who never perish and receive eternal life are to those who hear God's Word and follow God's Word v27.

Sorry, your dog don't hunt. v.27 isn't any kind of condition at all. It is a statement about what Jesus' sheep DO. He was describing their actions. And note that they are already His sheep, so that already makes them saved.

My view is that v.27 is actually a policy statement about what His sheep OUGHT to DO.

But, in any case, it is absoluetely NOT a condition upon which one becomes one of His sheep. All you're doing is trying to drag human effort into getting saved.

So the promise is to those who hear and follow what God says.

Absolutely false. Again, the promise is to His sheep. If you can find ANY verse that says one can become saved/His sheep/etc, by hearing and following Jesus, then you'd have a point.

Why is this important? The promise of eternal life as it the case with when linked to believing (present indicative active) in John 3:16 show that God's promises here of eternal life and "they" or those to whom these promises are given are to those believing and following Gods' Word.

Nope.

Now moving on to the next part of your post asking for scripture to show that a person who ceased to believe will perish? Let's consider the following scriptures...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,
[5], AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOSE END IS TO BE BURNED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 links right in here but it is referring to those who were once Christians but fall away in to a life on known unrepentant sin receiving the same punishment as the above scriptures show v8....whose end is to be burned.

So you really have no problem contradicting the clear words of Jesus. Wow. He said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

And here you are trying to prove that they CAN perish.

Note the following points pulled directly from HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

Yes, this described saved people. What's your point? The passage does NOT say anything about losing salvation. It specifically says that such people will not "renew themselves to repentance". That isn't about salvation, or the loss of it.

Let not link this to Hebrews 10:26-39...

How about, let's do?

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Just scroll back to v.18 and it should all fall into place.

These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

You know what the passage does NOT SAY? It says nothing about losing salvation.

And I'm surprised you would try to include John 3:18 and claim that such believers will "come under condemnation".

The verse specifically says it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

Did you miss that, or something? Can it be said of a former believer that they "have not believed"? Or course not. Because they HAVE believed at one time.

And 2 Thess 2:12 says the same thing. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

The words "have not believed" means "have NEVER believed".

Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word.

You keep repeating this, but you haven't provided ANY evidence from Scripture that salvation/eternal life is conditional on "following God's Word". In fact, that is a command for believers to obey. So there you go.

If we do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than we do not have eternal life according to the scriptures

No, according to you, ofr whoever taught you. Your idea of savlation is one of works salvation, or self-savior. If you hang in there "to the end" you'll be saved.

That's not God's plan, and that has no GRACE in it at all.

*HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

None of these verses says that salvation can be lost. But I'm sure you think they all mean that, or you wouldn't have cited them.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27.

Maybe you aren't aware that "God's sheep" are already saved people.

These are the ones God gives eternal life and will not perish.

v.27 isn't a conditional clause in any sense.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

Check out the context. It's the Tribulation, so "the end" refers to the end of the 7 year period. And it's not about eternal soul salvation, but deliverance from physical death.

Only those who believe and follow Gods' Word to the end receive everlasting life. Gods promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.
God bless

I will wait for your evidence for "following God's Word" as a condition for salvation.

 

[Andrewn]

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,.... Not with a bare historical faith, as only to believe that he was the Son of God, and the Messiah, and that he was come in the flesh, and had suffered, and died, and rose again, and was now in heaven at the right hand of God, and would come again to judge both quick and dead, for there may be such a faith and no salvation; but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him; the answer is much the same our Lord returned to the Jews, when they asked, though not with the same affection and sincerity as this man, what they must do to work the works of God, John 6:28.

 

[TibiasDad]

Note the following points pulled directly from HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...

1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

For me, while all these things are true and valid, the logical and theological ringer is your point #7. That they cannot be renewed to repentance means they were, at one point repentant, and that implies that they were indeed true believers. And, if renewal to repentance is necessary, then FG2's position that nothing need be done after being born again to have eternal life, even if you become unrepentant and no longer believe, cannot stand.

Doug

 

[bcbsr]

Acts 16:31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
...
I would suggest, however, that this is an example of an ingressive use of the aorist. The ingressive uses the punctiliar nature of the aorist to express the beginning of something, the initial point of beginning to do the action of the verb, in this case, believing.

While I have other issues with Free Grace Theology, it's not regarding this verse. The aorist used in this verse does in fact support the idea that upon coming to faith in Christ, yes even just beginning to believe in Christ, one's eternal fate is finalized, which Jesus also implied in John 5:24.

Invoking the ingressive sense of the oarist doesn't change that fact. Elaborating on the ingressive, the passages would essentially say, "What do I have to do to be saved?", the response being "All you have to do is to start believing in Jesus and you will be saved". The condition to be saved is to start believing. Wallace in his book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" defines the ingressive aorist as the following:

2. Ingressive (Inceptive, Inchoative) Aorist [began to]

• 
  The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated.
  

The Free Gracers are grammatically correct that Paul is saying that the condition to be saved is just to start believing and there is no implication in this verse, given the ingressive aorist, that believing must continue in order for the person to be saved.

One of the differences I have with the Free Gracers is from my study of scripture elsewhere, genuine faith results in continued faith. But I agree with them that a person's eternal fate is finalized upon one's initial faith in Christ, and this verse does indeed support that idea.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But that is the error. All saving faith action is done in the present tense. So when the Bible says to believe in Christ, of course that can only mean in the present tense.

There is no error. As saving faith is conditional to believing and following Gods' Word which is always in the present tense active. This is exactly what I was arguing.

However, Paul refutes the idea that one MUST continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. He used the aorist tense for believing, and the result of believing in a past point of time STILL results in being saved.
There aren't any verses that teach that one must keep on believing in order to be saved.

Paul does not say anywhere that we can stop believing and following God's Word and be saved. In fact he states the opposite and warns believers to continue in the faith and not depart the faith as shown in HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27 and 1 TIMOTHY 4:1. Your claims that there are not any verses that teach that one must keep on believing to be saved has been refuted and shown to be untrue in post # 25 linked. These are only some of the scriptures of many they prove that God's salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word. There is no scripture that says anywhere in Gods' Word that we can believe for a while and be saved and then depart the faith no longer following Gods' Word and still be saved. That is unbiblical and you have no evidence or scripture for that claim.

Again, saving faith is ALWAYS accomplished in the present tense. But, you now added "and following God's Word". Please provide clear evidence for that addition for being saved.

What is it that you think we have to believe in if not the Word of God. JESUS is the Word of God and it is his Word that we are saved by *JOHN 17:17. We are saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *JOHN 10:17. Of course we are to believe God's Word. That is what it means to believe in JESUS who is the living Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; 14.

LoveGodsWord wrote: For example John 3:16 The word "believe" in this verse is a present participle verb to believing or continuing to believe.

Your response..

FreeGrace2 wrote: I have to say, "so what"? What does that prove?

I thought that was obvious. God's salvation is conditional on believing or continuing to believe in the present tense active to believing as the scripture teaches. The scripture does not teach we can believe in the past tense and be saved if we no longer continue believing in the present tense active.

Except the present tense does NOT mean "continuing to .... whatever". It means this: to believe RIGHT NOW. to believe NOW. to believe PRESENTLY. That's what it means. It does NOT mean perpetual motion, which is what I am hearing you and Doug saying. iow, "keep on believing" to be saved. Still proving nothing more than believing in the RIGHT NOW in order to be saved.

Sure it does. It means to continually believe in the present. We never have the future we only have now (present tense). If I am here today I am in present tense now at this point in time today (present tense active) if I then continue my day and sleep and wake up the next day I am not in the future but still and always in the present now (present tense active). Believing is always to the present tense active to now, until we are no longer present in this earth or JESUS has returned in the second coming.

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

LoveGodsWord wrote: The continuing nature of SAVING FAITH is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

Your response...

Excuse me, but Paul actually DID use the aorist tense; in Acts 16:31. And in Romans 10:9. And Jesus Himself used the aorist tense for "drinking", a metaphor for belief in Himself for eternal life to a woman at a well in John 4.

Hmm this is just a deflection that no one is talking about and does not address anything you are quoting from here as I am now talking about the scriptures you quoted. Don't forget as we have established already when discussing Luke 8:13 the present indicative active to believe is always context driven and not a contradiction of terms.

Of course the promise of salvation is conditional upon believing. But your addition of "and following His Word" needs evidence.

I am adding nothing that is not already in the sciptures. It is faith in Gods' Word and following God's Word that is defined in the scriptures that is conditional on receiving God's promises. Believing and God's salvation or genuine faith is to God's Word which is where our faith comes from... *JOHN 10:16; JOHN 17:17; ROMANS 2:13 MATTHEW 7:21-27. Faith or believing in the scriptures is always attached to action and following what God's Word says. If our faith is not combined with action or following what Gods' Word says it is not saving faith but dead faith according to the scriptures *JAMES 2:18-20; 26. We are saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *JOHN 10:16. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved but it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of those that have already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 according to the scriptures.

Are you aware of what Jesus said in John 10:28? He made the most straightforward clear statement about eternal security that one can make. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. And prior to that, He said that those who believe have (as in POSSESS RIGHT NOW) ETERNAL LIFE. So we know that at the moment of belief in Christ, which action would obviously be a present tense action, HAS or possesses eternal life. So the statement in John 10:28 applies from the MOMENT of saving faith. Arminians believe that recipients of eternal life (saved people) can perish. That is in direct opposition to the teaching of the Lord Jesus.

This has already been addressed elsewhere in detail. When Jesus says the "they" shall never perish in John 10:28, context needs to be considered as to who the "they" are that Jesus is talking to.

Let's define "they" by adding in the context.

John 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note the context here defines those who never perish and receive eternal life are to those who hear God's Word and follow God's Word v27. So the promise is to those who hear and follow what God says.

Why is this important? The promise of eternal life when linked to believing (present indicative active) in John 3:16 show that God's promises here of eternal life and "they" or those to whom these promises are given are to those believing and following Gods' Word.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said:
"believe (present indicative active) for a while," What you mean is that you cannot defend your erroneous idea about the present tense indicative active. And Luke 8:13 refutes your claims about it.

It's real clear. Doug and you claim that one must continually believe in order to be saved. And that the present tense (Doug even emphasized the present indicative active) to mean "continually believe".

Yet, Jesus used the PIA for 'believe' and followed that immediately with "for a while", which clearly proves that the PIA doesn't mean "continually believe".


Right. And it shows that the PIA does NOT mean "continually believing".


Why would you say that? Can you explain yourself, instead of just throwing out these comments without any evidence or clarification?


If you believe that salvation can be lost, then you DO have a problem with what Jesus taught in John 10:28. A HUGE problem.

I believe your missing the point here in this post. The point being it is the scripture context that determines the application of present indicative active. The Luke 8:11 scripture proves this and is evidence in and of itself and why it was provided. You kind of hand waived this post without addressing the content. The post was provided to prove that the within scripture context determines application of believe to the present indicative active (to now).

Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

As posted earlier, the within scripture context here is that a person can believe (present indicative active) links to "for a while". The present indicative active is to "for a while" then at a future point "when time of temptation comes fall away". That is they fall away from believing after a time in the future when temptation comes. It is the "for a while" that is context to present tense active of believing.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said: "Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish. If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know,that they shall never perish.

Scriptures are already provided in post # 25 linked.

Those who believe possess eternal life (right now!- present tense). You think those who cease to believe will perish. Jesus said they SHALL NEVER PERISH." Easy. Believers in Him. Who else would be given eternal life?

This is the point the "they" being referred to in JOHN 10:28 is to believers not those who have departed the faith to become unbelievers and return to a life of known unrepentant sin. It is to the believers "those who hear God's Word and follow it" that are Gods' sheep and those who he gives the promise of eternal live and who will never perish. This goes against a believe of once saved always saved. It does not support it.

John 5:24 and 6:47 says those who believe have eternal life. So there is no mystery about who the "they" are in John 10:28. In context, they are "His sheep".

"Believe here in these scriptures are present tense indicative, that is to believe in the now or to believing. This only supports what is being shared with you. These scriptures do not support a position of once saved yesterday depart the faith to no longer believing present tense active is still saved apart from believing. Contest to John 10:28 is John 10:26-27 where Jesus defines who his sheep are. They are defined in the very words of JESUS as those who hear his voice (the Word) and follow it.

Sorry, your dog don't hunt. v.27 isn't any kind of condition at all. It is a statement about what Jesus' sheep DO. He was describing their actions. And note that they are already His sheep, so that already makes them saved.

Your making strawman arguments here no one is talking about. JESUS is making a statement or defining who "they" are in v28 that receive eternal life and never perish. The "they" is defined in the context of v28 in v26-27 as those who hear His voice (the Word) and follow it in the present tense active.

My view is that v.27 is actually a policy statement about what His sheep OUGHT to DO. But, in any case, it is absoluetely NOT a condition upon which one becomes one of His sheep.

That would not be biblical as shown through the scriptures already.

All you're doing is trying to drag human effort into getting saved.

Not at all we are only saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *JOHN 10:16. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved but it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of those that have already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 according to the scriptures.

If you can find ANY verse that says one can become saved/His sheep/etc, by hearing and following Jesus, then you'd have a point.

JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Why is this important? The promise of eternal life as it the case with when linked to believing (present indicative active) in John 3:16 show that God's promises here of eternal life and "they" or those to whom these promises are given are to those believing and following Gods' Word.

Your response...

Nope.

As shown through the scriptures the "they" in John 10:28 are defined by JESUS as those who hear his voice (the Word) and follow it. Your nope it not to my words but the very Words of JESUS.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Now moving on to the next part of your post asking for scripture to show that a person who ceased to believe will perish? Let's consider the following scriptures...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST,
[5], AND HAVE TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,
[6], IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY TO THEMSELVES THE SON OF GOD AFRESH, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME.
[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOSE END IS TO BE BURNED.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 links right in here but it is referring to those who were once Christians but fall away in to a life on known unrepentant sin receiving the same punishment as the above scriptures show v8....whose end is to be burned.

Your response here...

So you really have no problem contradicting the clear words of Jesus. Wow. He said recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH. And here you are trying to prove that they CAN perish. Yes, this described saved people.

I did not contradict the very clear words of JESUS. I only drew attention who JESUS defines "they" as being to those who hear His voice (the Word) and follow it. *John 10:26-27. Those who do not hear and follow are not those JESUS gives the promise of eternal life to and not those who he promises will never perish. (God's Words not mine) and the scriptures provided in HEBREWS 6:4-8 state that we can be a true believer and depart the faith to become an unbeliever. Paul also warning us in HEBREWS 10:26-39 not to depart the faith. As shown in the scriptures already, those who believed yesterday and have fallen away and do not believe today and continue in unbelief will perish as they are no longer believers but by departing the faith have become unbelievers. *HEBREWS 6:4-8; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1; HEBREWS 10:26-31. God's sheep are all those who hear His voice (the Word) and follow it. God's promise of eternal life is only given to those who believe and follow His Word.

What's your point? The passage does NOT say anything about losing salvation. It specifically says that such people will not "renew themselves to repentance". That isn't about salvation, or the loss of it.

Sure it does if there is no repentance. You missed verse v8....whose end is to be burned.

Just scroll back to v.18 and it should all fall into place.

No need, the context and subject matter in HEBREWS 10:26-39 is to believers when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word departing the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin. Paul gives the following warnings and includes himself to "We believers" as shown earlier...

1. WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have received a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

You know what the passage does NOT SAY? It says nothing about losing salvation.

Sure it does... you must have missed v26-31

[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

And I'm surprised you would try to include John 3:18 and claim that such believers will "come under condemnation".

JOHN 3:18 is not talking about believers being condemned but unbelievers. [18], He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

LoveGodsWord wrote: *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

Your response...

None of these verses says that salvation can be lost. But I'm sure you think they all mean that, or you wouldn't have cited them.

They were not provided to show salvation can be lost. They were provided to show salvation is conditional. Happy to post a detailed study on conditional salvation if your interested in the next post.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I will wait for your evidence for "following God's Word" as a condition for salvation.

The evidence through the scriptures has already been provided in the previous posts. In this post I was only wanting to demonstrate conditional salvation further through the scriptures. What follows here is only the short version as there are too many scriptures and promises to list here.

................

IS SALVATION CONDITIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

“IF” SHOWS SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON BOTH BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list here. This is only the short version.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

For me, while all these things are true and valid, the logical and theological ringer is your point #7. That they cannot be renewed to repentance means they were, at one point repentant, and that implies that they were indeed true believers. And, if renewal to repentance is a necessary, then FG2's position that nothing need be done after being born again to have eternal life, even if you become unrepentant and no longer believe, cannot stand.

Doug

Hi TD, thanks for your comments.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

.............

For me, I use to read this as saying that it is impossible for those who were once Christians fallen into sin. What changed my view is that it does not say that. It says it is impossible for those who "FALL AWAY" to renew themselves to repentance because they have departed the faith. That does not mean someone cannot return to the faith and repent. It simply means when someone has fallen away and departed the faith that there is no other way outside of the faith (the Word) they can be saved.

..........

Charles Spurgeon- Note that Paul does not say, “If they shall fall;” but, “If they shall fall away,” — if the religion which they have professed shall cease to have any power over them, — then, it shall be impossible —

God bless

 

[TibiasDad]

While I have other issues with Free Grace Theology, it's not regarding this verse. The aorist used in this verse does in fact support the idea that upon coming to faith in Christ, yes even just beginning to believe in Christ, one's eternal fate is finalized, which Jesus also implied in John 5:24.

Invoking the ingressive sense of the oarist doesn't change that fact. Elaborating on the ingressive, the passages would essentially say, "What do I have to do to be saved?", the response being "All you have to do is to start believing in Jesus and you will be saved". The condition to be saved is to start believing. Wallace in his book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" defines the ingressive aorist as the following:

2. Ingressive (Inceptive, Inchoative) Aorist [began to]

• 
  The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated.

The Free Gracers are grammatically correct that Paul is saying that the condition to be saved is just to start believing and there is no implication in this verse, given the ingressive aorist, that believing must continue in order for the person to be saved.

One of the differences I have with the Free Gracers is from my study of scripture elsewhere, genuine faith results in continued faith. But I agree with them that a person's eternal fate is finalized upon one's initial faith in Christ, and this verse does indeed support that idea.

BCBSR,

Hello, and thank you for joining the discussion.

I was, and am puzzled by this, as I am not completely sure where the difference is between what I stated and what you assert by quoting Wallace? In fact, the biggest thing that I disagree with is where you say, "the passages would essentially say, "What do I have to do to be saved?", the response being "All you have to do is to start believing in Jesus and you will be saved" I do not think that "All you have to do" is an accurate or acceptable concept of the ingressive.

As I have come to understand the ingressive, it is merely the focus is on an action that begins, or perhaps that the punctiliar action of the aorist is the initiation point of the action of the verb. The continuation is implicit because it has begun. For instance one older Greek manual I have (Dana and Mantley) says that to say "he died" is ingressive because the emphasis is on the point of reference that he began to be dead. But being dead also continues until say resurrection occurs. But to say "he killed" is not ingressive, but cumulative because the focal point is on the completed act as a whole.

I'm guessing that you are Reformed in your thinking, and what I've said above would fit nicely with your belief that "genuine faith results in continued faith", and thus perseverance is accomplished. I agree that there must be a persevering, a continuous progress, not necessarily without interruption, but one that is true and active at the end. But the FG position that FG2 is espousing is that one who believes but later completely abandons his faith, ala Charles Templeton, is still a " believer" with eternal life without persevering faith in Christ at the end.

Acts 16:31 says nothing about what happens in the end, with this I agree, but it does refer to the start of an dynamic belief that ends with salvation. A dynamic belief results in salvation! You and I, a Wesleyan and a Calvinist, agree at this point. We agree that real faith, in the end, is alive and active. It does not say anything akin to what FG2 asserts. Believing is not all that is necessary, it is all that is necessary to begin our life in Christ, and be born again, but we must also repent, confess, and stop sinning, continue to grow in Christ! Acts 16:31 is about the beginning of this journey. "Start your believing (Aorist, Imperative, Active) and you will be saved (Future, Indicative, Passive). The future salvation is contingent on the start of personal believing. That is all Acts 16:31 says. No certainty of the end is defined, but the implication of all of Scripture is that what is started must continue into the future. It does not say that "all you need to do is start believing" but rather that "believing is necessary for salvation so you have to start believing"! That is the imperative mood speaking. Believing is necessary! Start!


Doug

 

[bcbsr]

The continuation is implicit because it has begun.

Nope. Again I go back to my reference of Wallace, "The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated."

Paul is answering the question of what a person must do to be saved. The sole condition he gives is to begin to believe. "there is no implication that the action continues." That's the ingressive.

 

[GDL]

Acts16:31

In Acts16:24-29 the jailer is commanded to keep the prisoners securely, thus puts them in the “inner prison & fastens their feet in stocks,” is about to kill himself when he thinks the prisoners escaped, “rushes into” the dark inner prison & “trembling in fear” "falls down" before Paul & Silas after Paul tells him not to harm himself as no one has escaped.

16:30-31 the answer to the jailer’s question, “what must (what is necessary) I do in order to be saved?” is, “Believe (AorImpInd) upon the Lord Jesus (Christ is also in some manuscripts), and you will be saved (FutPassInd)...”

For reference, I’m quoting & excerpting from Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel Wallace.

There are always choices to be made in interpreting.

1. My Observations re: this Scripture:

A. This is an urgent situation with specific circumstances for the jailer. He’s likely to be put to death for his failure to keep the prisoners secure, so he’s about to kill himself & trembling in fear. Paul & Silas are taking advantage of a crises brought on by a miracle.

B. In 16:32 after giving the command to believe, Paul & Silas “spoke to them the word of the Lord,” so much more was added to the simple command in 16:31. I would refer to Acts13 to see more comprehensively what Paul was proclaiming in these times.

2. Conditional Imperatives:

A. “The imperative may at times be used to state a condition (protasis) on which the fulfillment (apodosis) of another verb depends. There are at least twenty such imperatives in the NT”

B. “This use of the imperative is always or almost always found in the construction imperative + καί + future indicative.103 The idea is “If X, then Y will happen.” As well, there are a few constructions in which the verb in the apodosis is either another imperative104 or οὐ μή + subjunctive,105 though all of these are disputed”

3. Volitional Clauses (Commands & Prohibitions) – The Aorist Imperative

A. “The basic idea of the aorist imperative is a command in which the action is viewed as a whole, without regard for the internal make-up of the action”

B. “in commands related to conduct in specific cases (much less frequent in the NT) for the aorist.” Why is the aorist singled out for specific commands? “A specific command normally calls for action viewed as a single whole, for action to be done in its entirety on that occasion, and the aorist is natural for this.”

1. Ingressive - This is a command to begin an action. It is a common usage. The stress is on the urgency of the action. This may be broken down into two subcategories.

a. Momentary or Single Act - Here a specific situation is usually in view rather than a general precept.

b. Pure Ingressive - The stress is on the beginning of an action that the context usually makes clear is not a momentary action.

2. Constative - This is a solemn or categorical command. The stress is not “begin an action,” nor “continue to act.” Rather, the stress is on the solemnity and urgency of the action; thus “I solemnly charge you to act–and do it now!” This is the use of the aorist in general precepts. Although the aorist is here transgressing onto the present tense’s turf, it adds a certain flavor. It is as if the author says, “Make this your top priority.” As such, the aorist is often used to command an action that has been going on. In this case, both solemnity and a heightened urgency are its force

4. Aorist Tense:

A. “The Abused Aorist: Swinging the Pendulum Back” (content copied in entirety – my formatting)

1. “There are two errors to avoid in treating the aorist: saying too little and saying too much”

2. “First, some have said too little by assuming that nothing more than the unaffected meaning can ever be seen when the aorist is used. This view fails to recognize that the aorist tense (like other tenses) does not exist in a vacuum. Categories of usage are legitimate because the tenses combine with other linguistic features to form various fields of meaning”

3. “Second, many NT students see a particular category of usage (Aktionsart) as underlying the entire tense usage (aspect). This is the error of saying too much. Statements such as “the aorist means once-for-all action” are of this sort. It is true that the aorist may, under certain circumstances, describe an event that is, in reality, momentary. But we run into danger when we say that this is the aorist’s unaffected meaning, for then we force it on the text in an artificial way. We then tend to ignore such aorists that disprove our view (and they can be found in every chapter of the NT) and proclaim loudly the “once-for-all” aorists when they suit us”

5. Out of the 5 choices in Wallace for categorizing an aorist tense, I see the following 2 as being the best choices:

a. Constative:

1. The aorist normally views the action as a whole, taking no interest in the internal workings of the action. It describes the action in summary fashion, without focusing on the beginning or end of the action specifically. This is by far the most common use of the aorist, especially with the indicative mood

2. The constative aorist covers a multitude of actions. The event might be iterative in nature, or durative, or momentary, but the aorist says none of this. It places the stress on the fact of the occurrence, not its nature

b. Ingressive:

1. The aorist tense may be used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated. The ingressive aorist is quite common

2. This use of the aorist is usually shut up to two kinds of verbs: (1) It occurs with stative verbs, in which the stress is on entrance into the state. (2) It also occurs with verbs that denote activities, especially in contexts where the action is introduced as a new item in the discourse

3. Many aorists could be treated as ingressive or constative, depending on what the interpreter sees as the focus. There is not always a hard-and-fast distinction between them

6. Conclusions re: Acts16:31:

A. The Imperative + kai + future indicative structure fits the Conditional Imperative description

1. Coupled with the description of the Ingressive & Constative Aorists: this command can be to begin belief & entrance into the state of belief (Ingressive), which certainly makes sense since the jailer is obviously not in belief yet; it can just be describing the concept of belief in summary & as a whole without focusing on the beginning or end of the action, which can be iterative, durative, or momentary

a. Momentary makes no sense re: Biblical Belief, but could be applicable grammatically per the Volitional Clause instruction in that it simply would be referring to a specific situation rather than a pure momentary action; Biblical Belief may be iterative as certain situations may require us to exercise belief periodically; and durative is certainly correct re: Biblical Belief as many other Scriptures detail. What do we think Paul & Silas detailed as referred to in 16:32?

b. One thing that is for certain re: the Aorist Tense – anyone who says an Aorist cannot represent a continuous condition is incorrect as the Ingressive & Constative classifications instruct and as Wallace points out re: abuse of the aorist.

B. The urgency of this situation also fits all the information re: the Imperative as a Volitional Clause, which mainly sates that we’re dealing with an urgent & specific matter & entrance into Biblical Belief.

C. As is usual in cherry-picking verses, Acts16:31 does not make the case for a one-time belief for salvation, nor does it make the case in itself for continuous belief being required for salvation.

1. IMO, the Ingressive interpretation makes sense for a continuous (durative) conclusion. To enter into a state of belief suggests something a state to be continued, not a momentary state.

7. RE: Consummative Aorists: I’m not sure why this is being discussed, or if it is being discussed in some interpretation other than as Wallace describes this classification: "The aorist is often used to stress the cessation of an act or state. Certain verbs, by their lexical nature, virtually require this usage.11 For example, “he died” is usually not going to be an ingressive idea. The context also assists in this usage at times; it may imply that an act was already in progress and the aorist then brings the action to a conclusion. This is different from a consummative perfect, for the latter places the stress on (a) completion of the action, not merely cessation;12 and especially (b) continuing results after the completion of the action."

8. Re: Telic vs. Atelic: Using the simple definitions of Telic meaning having an end & Atelic meaning endless, I initially think the word pisteuo can be either, but Biblical Belief for Biblical Salvation is Atelic.

 

[GDL]

2. Ingressive (Inceptive, Inchoative) Aorist [began to]

• 
  The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated.

The Free Gracers are grammatically correct that Paul is saying that the condition to be saved is just to start believing and there is no implication in this verse, given the ingressive aorist, that believing must continue in order for the person to be saved.

One of the differences I have with the Free Gracers is from my study of scripture elsewhere, genuine faith results in continued faith. But I agree with them that a person's eternal fate is finalized upon one's initial faith in Christ, and this verse does indeed support that idea.

Keep reading in Wallace re: the Constative Aorist potentially having a durative meaning, as well as a iterative, or momentary meaning. See my post #39 above.

Also, isn't Wallace also saying in your highlighted statement that the continuation is "simply left unstated"? IOW, it may or may not be continual (like the Constative Aorist). Wallace also notes that there is not always a hard-and-fast distinction between Ingressive & Constative. The aorist has room to be iterative (punctiliar, repeated), durative (continuous), momentary. Once we take a fixed stand on any of these a a general rule, Wallace points out how we're saying too much about the Aorist as it suits us (our theology for instance).