Use of the aorist

[FreeGrace2]

While I have other issues with Free Grace Theology, it's not regarding this verse. The aorist used in this verse does in fact support the idea that upon coming to faith in Christ, yes even just beginning to believe in Christ, one's eternal fate is finalized, which Jesus also implied in John 5:24.

Invoking the ingressive sense of the oarist doesn't change that fact. Elaborating on the ingressive, the passages would essentially say, "What do I have to do to be saved?", the response being "All you have to do is to start believing in Jesus and you will be saved". The condition to be saved is to start believing. Wallace in his book "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" defines the ingressive aorist as the following:

2. Ingressive (Inceptive, Inchoative) Aorist [began to]

• 
  The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated.

The Free Gracers are grammatically correct that Paul is saying that the condition to be saved is just to start believing and there is no implication in this verse, given the ingressive aorist, that believing must continue in order for the person to be saved.

Thanks for your great explanation!

One of the differences I have with the Free Gracers is from my study of scripture elsewhere, genuine faith results in continued faith.

I am interested in where your information comes from. We can PM, in order not to hijack this thread, if you'd like.

But I agree with them that a person's eternal fate is finalized upon one's initial faith in Christ, and this verse does indeed support that idea.

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"But that is the error. All saving faith action is done in the present tense. So when the Bible says to believe in Christ, of course that can only mean in the present tense."

There is no error. As saving faith is conditional to believing and following Gods' Word which is always in the present tense active. This is exactly what I was arguing.

But you are arguing without any evidence. The Greek grammar doesn't suggest anything like what you and others are claiming about it. The present tense is from the perspective of the writer/speaker. It means "right now", or "currently".

All saving faith belief is done in the present tense of the believer. When they believe, they are believing NOW. In fact, at any given moment, you CANNOT believe in the past, or future. Therefore, all belief occurs in the present. However, as Jesus noted, even present indicative active belief doesn't always continue. Luke 8:13 speaks of one who did believe, but "for a while". And there was NO explanation about losing salvation, either there or anywhere else in Scripture.

Paul does not say anywhere that we can stop believing and following God's Word and be saved.

Why would you think he needed to? From Eph 1:13,14 he taught that from "having believed" (aorist tense) the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit who is a deposit GUARANTEEING the believer's inheritance as God's possession. That is eternal security.

What is it that you think we have to believe in if not the Word of God.

You know very well that's just too vague to be of any value. There are many things in the Bible that evangelicals don't believe.

What we HAVE TO believe is that Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior, that He died personally for your sins, and that He gives eternal life to believers, and they are saved.

Sure it does. It means to continually believe in the present.

No, it doesn't mean that. Some actions occuring in the present are momentary actions, and some are "continuous action". Like a football game. But describing a football game as it is occurring (in the present) in no way suggests that the game will be continually played. In fact, that is absurd to even think that way. But that is exactly what you are trying to do with believing in the present tense.

I am adding nothing that is not already in the sciptures.

Yes you are. You add "follow God's Word". And you still haven't provided any verses that say that is a condition for salvation.

It is faith in Gods' Word and following God's Word that is defined in the scriptures that is conditional on receiving God's promises.

Your statements are quite vague. Are you doing that on purpose, or are you just not aware of what you are doing?

This has already been addressed elsewhere in detail. When Jesus says the "they" shall never perish in John 10:28, context needs to be considered as to who the "they" are that Jesus is talking to.

Let's define "they" by adding in the context.

John 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note the context here defines those who never perish and receive eternal life are to those who hear God's Word and follow God's Word v27. So the promise is to those who hear and follow what God says.

Wrong. You're trying to make hearing and following about a condition for BECOMING a sheep of Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth.

We know from a plethora of verses that eternal life is a possession of people who believe. From the moment they believe. v.27 is only a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. It is very clear. Hearing and following are NOT conditions for salvation.

The FACT that Jesus is describing His sheep proves that they are already saved.

Or do you think that Jesus' sheep could be unsaved?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe your missing the point here in this post. The point being it is the scripture context that determines the application of present indicative active.

Uh, no. The PIA of any verb is determined by the Greek grammar rules, just as in the English. Proper language follows grammar rules. Of course people can slaughter those rules, and many do. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the writers of Scripture to slaughter the Greek grammar rules.

We understand language by the use of grammar, not by context.

The Luke 8:11 proves this and is evidence in and of itself and why it was provided. You kind of hand waived this post without addressing the content. The post was provided to prove that the within scripture context determines application of believe to the present indicative active (to now).

The fact of the use of the aorist tense in relation to believing for salvation refutes all your notions about the PIA.

Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

As posted earlier, the within scripture context here is that a person can believe (present indicative active) links to "for a while". The present indicative active is to "for a while" then at a future point "when time of temptation comes fall away". That is they fall away from believing after a time in the future when temptation comes. It is the "for a while" that is context to present tense active of believing.

So what to all of this? The point is that they DID believe. Therefore, they WILL NOT come into condemnation.

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned. Once belief, no condemnation is the messasge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said: "Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish. If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know,that they shall never perish.

Scriptures are already provided in post # 25 linked.

I already addressed your "list". None of them say salvation can be lost, for any reason. It is only your opinion that thinks so.

Your making strawman arguments here no one is talking about. JESUS is making a statement or defining who "they" are in v28 that receive eternal life and never perish.

The clear point of v.28 is that those given eternal life, which are His sheep, meaning they have already believed, shall never perish. That's the message. You have failed to grasp that message.

JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Why do you think any of these verses say that salvation can be lost? They don't.

I won't respond to the rest of your very long post, as it seems we're just talking over each other.

I've presented facts, and you have presented opinions.

 

[TibiasDad]

I've presented facts, and you have presented opinions.

And that is your opinion!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The clear point of v.28 is that those given eternal life, which are His sheep, meaning they have already believed, shall never perish. That's the message. You have failed to grasp that message.

Rather, "those given eternal life, which are presently His sheep, meaning they are present never perish!" Eternal life cannot be separated from a) the source of eternal life, namely the Eternal Son, The Life, and b) being within the pen, that is being in Christ himself, the vine and c) responding properly to his voice and following his lead.

You cannot a) exclude any of the terms associated with being a sheep, for they identify the traits of a true sheep, nor can you b) interpret a passage in a vacuum; both of which are errors you ate constantly guilty of repeatedly enacting.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Nope. Again I go back to my reference of Wallace, "The aorist tense is often used to stress the beginning of an action or the entrance into a state. Unlike the ingressive imperfect, there is no implication that the action continues. This is simply left unstated."

Paul is answering the question of what a person must do to be saved. The sole condition he gives is to begin to believe. "there is no implication that the action continues." That's the ingressive.

If there is no implication of the action continuing on, then there is no implication of starting to believe being a completed effectual act either! In other words, "starting" is a necessary condition, but nothing else can be concretely established for either one of our positions, thus, Acts 16:31 proves nothing for either one of us!

Doug

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said:
"But that is the error. All saving faith action is done in the present tense. So when the Bible says to believe in Christ, of course that can only mean in the present tense."

Indeed and my response was there was no error. As saving faith is conditional to believing and following Gods' Word which is always in the present tense active. This is exactly what I was arguing. If you have no faith in the present tense then your effectively an "unbeliever". You cannot believe yesterday and not believe today in the present tense active and receive Gods' promises as conditionally your no longer believing in the present tense active.

But you are arguing without any evidence. The Greek grammar doesn't suggest anything like what you and others are claiming about it. The present tense is from the perspective of the writer/speaker. It means "right now", or "currently".

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. You have been provided the evidence. You have simply chosen to ignore it. You have been provided both scripture and the Greek showing the context your not considering in your interpretations. In the Greek both the within scripture and chapter contexts determine Greek word application not the other way round. Your application is like trying to examine a leaf disconnected from the tree it is connected to and not seeing the forest the tree is living in. Scriptures provided. If you do not agree then I guess we agree to disagree or prove your claims and address the content of my posts.

All saving faith belief is done in the present tense of the believer. When they believe, they are believing NOW. In fact, at any given moment, you CANNOT believe in the past, or future. Therefore, all belief occurs in the present. However, as Jesus noted, even present indicative active belief doesn't always continue. Luke 8:13 speaks of one who did believe, but "for a while". And there was NO explanation about losing salvation, either there or anywhere else in Scripture.

Sorry dear friend, this is simply more repetition. That has already been addressed. All throughout our life as believers all we have is always now in the present tense. We are to always believe now. You cannot believe yesterday and not believe tomorrow in the present tense and fulfill the conditions of salvation and God's promises. God's promises are always to the believers in the present tense indicative.

Why would you think he needed to? From Eph 1:13,14 he taught that from "having believed" (aorist tense) the believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit who is a deposit GUARANTEEING the believer's inheritance as God's possession. That is eternal security.

Ephesians 1:13-14 is not stating anywhere that those "having believed" stopped believing or they would no longer be believers. Paul is only stating when they first believed aorist. It was the the belief that firsts seals us with God's Spirit. Do a word study on unbelief and sin and you will see that Paul warns us against these things grieving and quenching (putting out) God's Spirit as believing and following God's Word are all conditions of receiving God's Spirit and God's salvation as well as all of His promises. Having God's Spirit is conditional on believing and following God's Word always in the present tense. There is no scripture that says we can believe God yesterday and no longer believe God today and still receive God's salvation or his promises.

You know very well that's just too vague to be of any value. There are many things in the Bible that evangelicals don't believe. What we HAVE TO believe is that Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior, that He died personally for your sins, and that He gives eternal life to believers, and they are saved.

Not really you were trying to claim that

you now added "and following God's Word". Please provide clear evidence for that addition for being saved.

I simply responded by providing you with the evidence and challenged your claims here by asking you what is it that you think we have to believe in if not the Word of God and stated through the scriptures that JESUS is the Word of God and it is his Word that we are saved by *JOHN 17:17 and we are to believe and follow *JOHN 3:16; MATTHEW 7:21-27. We are saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 but faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *JOHN 10:17. Of course we are to believe God's Word. That is what it means to believe in JESUS who is the living Word of God *JOHN 1:1-4; 14.

No, it doesn't mean that. Some actions occuring in the present are momentary actions, and some are "continuous action". Like a football game. But describing a football game as it is occurring (in the present) in no way suggests that the game will be continually played. In fact, that is absurd to even think that way. But that is exactly what you are trying to do with believing in the present tense.

Yes it does mean that as posted earlier it means to continually believe in the present. We never have the future we only have now (present tense). If I am here today I am in present tense active "now" at this point in time today (present tense active). If I then continue my day and sleep and wake up the next day I am not in the future but still and always in the present now (present tense active). We always only have "the now" present tense" which means we are always to believe "now" present tense. Believing is always to the present tense active to now, until we are no longer present in this earth or JESUS has returned in the second coming.

John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Yes you are. You add "follow God's Word". And you still haven't provided any verses that say that is a condition for salvation.

You were provided scripture in the previous post stating that believing and following God's Word are conditions to God's salvation here are a few more...

John 3:15-16 [15] that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is BELIEVING in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

HEBREWS 5:9: “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”

1 JOHN 2:3-4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

MATTHEW 7:21 Jesus says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Faith or believing in the scriptures is always attached to action and following what God's Word says. If our faith is not combined with action or following what Gods' Word says it is not saving faith but dead faith according to the scriptures *JAMES 2:18-20; 26. We are saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9 and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *JOHN 10:16. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved but it is the FRUIT of genuine faith of those that have already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50 according to the scriptures.

Wrong. You're trying to make hearing and following about a condition for BECOMING a sheep of Jesus. Nothing could be further from the truth. We know from a plethora of verses that eternal life is a possession of people who believe. From the moment they believe. v.27 is only a description of what Jesus' sheep DO. It is very clear. Hearing and following are NOT conditions for salvation. The FACT that Jesus is describing His sheep proves that they are already saved. Or do you think that Jesus' sheep could be unsaved?

Nope, I am not trying to make JOHN 10:26-27 a condition. It is a statement of fact from JESUS as to who "they" are that never perish and receive eternal life. This has already been addressed elsewhere in detail. When Jesus says the "they" shall never perish in John 10:28, context needs to be considered as to who the "they" are that Jesus is talking to.

As shown earlier JESUS defines who are "they" and who are not "they" that never perish and receive eternal life in JOHN 10:26-27.

John 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I GIVE TO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Note the context here defines those who never perish and receive eternal life are to those who hear God's Word and follow God's Word v27. So the promise is to those who hear and follow what God says.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I believe your missing the point here in this post. The point being it is the scripture context that determines the application of present indicative active.

Your response here...

Uh, no. The PIA of any verb is determined by the Greek grammar rules, just as in the English. Proper language follows grammar rules. Of course people can slaughter those rules, and many do. But I don't believe that the Holy Spirit inspired any of the writers of Scripture to slaughter the Greek grammar rules. We understand language by the use of grammar, not by context. The fact of the use of the aorist tense in relation to believing for salvation refutes all your notions about the PIA.

Your making strawman arguments no one is talking about again. No one is saying we ignore grammar rules and no one has. I posted that scripture contexts are important in determining word applications and meanings and interpretation of what is being said with application to the context of what I posted above being to Luke 8:11 which stated "believing for a while" being present tense indicative. No one is arguing grammar is not important to understand language. What is being stated in that post is that it is the context that determines the application and interpretation of what the present tense indicative is and that context is to "believing for a while".

LoveGodsWord wrote: Luke 8:11[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. As posted earlier, the within scripture context here is that a person can believe (present indicative active) links to "for a while". The present indicative active is to "for a while" then at a future point "when time of temptation comes fall away". That is they fall away from believing after a time in the future when temptation comes. It is the "for a while" that is context to present tense active of believing.

Your response here...

So what to all of this? The point is that they DID believe. Therefore, they WILL NOT come into condemnation. Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that it is those who "have not believed" who will be condemned. Once belief, no condemnation is the messasge.

Hmm nope! LUKE 8:11 stated that they believed only "for a while" The point is that they fell away when temptation came and departed the faith. You are incorrect claiming that they will not come into condemnation because after temptation came they were no longer believing in the present tense indicative but had fallen away into unbelief therefore "unbelievers" present tense indicative (not sure why you cannot see this to be honest). If after temptation those who once believed are no longer believers then they are now "unbelievers" in the present tense indicative therefore the scriptures applied in JOHN 3:18 state and are applicable to "but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The scriptures say no where as you claim "once belief, no condemnation" as believing or unbelieving is always present tense active. You can only be one or the other and any time. God's salvation and promises are always in the present tense to believing now.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I said: "Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish. If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know,that they shall never perish.

You have been provided many facts and scriptures. You simply choose to ignore them and not believe them so we will have to agree to disagree.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Scriptures are already provided in post # 25 linked.

Your response..

I already addressed your "list". None of them say salvation can be lost, for any reason. It is only your opinion that thinks so.

Nope. You responded by hand waiving but you did not address the content of the scriptures provided you simply ignored them. You are free to believe as you wish however. We will have to agree to disagree.

The clear point of v.28 is that those given eternal life, which are His sheep, meaning they have already believed, shall never perish. That's the message. You have failed to grasp that message.

Nope. JOHN 10:26-27 defines those who receive eternal life and never perish as those who hear God's voice (the Word) and follows it. This is the context your leaving out.

LoveGodsWord wrote: JOHN 10:26-27 [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you.
[27], My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

JAMES 2:18-20[18], Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19], You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20], But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAMES 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

MATTHEW 7:21-27
[21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
[23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
[24], Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
[25], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
[26], And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house on the sand:
[27], And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Your response...

Why do you think any of these verses say that salvation can be lost? They don't.

Why would you think they are about losing salvation? Those scriptures were posted as as response to your request to provide scripture that says one becomes saved by hearing and following Gods Word.

I won't respond to the rest of your very long post, as it seems we're just talking over each other. I've presented facts, and you have presented opinions.

Right back at ya. I believe I have presented the facts, and scriptures and the context your have not considered in your posts and you have presented an opinion or strawman arguments no one is talking about. This is where we will agree to disagree and our discussion ends. Thanks for the discussion though. I will leave you with the last say as I think you need it more then I do.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And that is your opinion!

Doug

No, that's yours. You have NOT shown that the use of the PIA of 'believe' means to continually believe, and that only those who continually believe will be saved.

That is pure opinion. Not biblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rather, "those given eternal life, which are presently His sheep, meaning they are present never perish!"

Your sentence doesn't make sense. And His sheep are ALWAYS His sheep, unless you can find any verse in context, or even anywhere else that says clearly that His sheep can become someone else's sheep, or at least "not His sheep" by some specific reason.

Eternal life cannot be separated from a) the source of eternal life, namely the Eternal Son, The Life, and b) being within the pen, that is being in Christ himself, the vine and c) responding properly to his voice and following his lead.

You are correct. No believer can be separated from the source of eternal life. And that is called eternal security.

Rom 8-
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The red words ask a question. The very structure of the rest of the verses demands a vigorous NO answer.

And please don't tell me that believers who lose salvation will experience His love in the lake of fire. That would be absurd.

Because saved people can't be separated from the love of Christ, they WILL experience His love in eternity.

You cannot a) exclude any of the terms associated with being a sheep, for they identify the traits of a true sheep

You really are trying very hard to squeeze a description of what His sheep DO into the conditions for BECOMING His sheep. Well, that is bogus. And absurd.

nor can you b) interpret a passage in a vacuum; both of which are errors you ate constantly guilty of repeatedly enacting.

Doug

There may be a vacuum around here, but it isn't in the way I explain verses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If there is no implication of the action continuing in then there is no implication of starting to believe being a completed effectual act either! In other words, "starting" is a necessary condition, but nothing else can be concretely established for either one of our positions, thus, Acts 16:31 proves nothing for either one of us!

Doug

Nice dodge. btw, Acts 16:31 doesn't say "start believing". It says to believe in a point in time. iow, WHEN one does believe, they will be saved.

Very simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Indeed and my response was there was no error. As saving faith is conditional to believing and following Gods' Word

I'm getting rather tired of your repeating yourself, and without any evidence from Scripture. So please stop adding "following God's Word" as a requirement or condition for being saved.

Only IF IF IF you can provide verses that clearly state that following God's Word is a condition for salvation can you legitimately say that. Until then, please stop.

And I'm tired of your extremely long posts. Kinda like hearing a long winded speech that goes nowhere.

which is always in the present tense active. This is exactly what I was arguing.

Please stop making me repeat myself. Of course all active belief is in the present tense. And that FACT does NOT support your notions about having to continually believe in order to be saved.

If you have no faith in the present tense then your effectively an "unbeliever".

Unless and until you can find any verse that describes or calls any former believer an "unbeliever", you have no point.

The Bible uses the word "apostate" to describe a person who used to believe. An apostate is one who 'NO LONGER BELIEVES WHAT THEY USED TO BELIEVE'.

An unbeliever is one who NEVER believed. And I've already given 2 verses that speak directly to those who "have not believed", meaning have NEVER believed.

John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. It is those who NEVER believed who will be condemned.

You cannot believe yesterday and not believe today in the present tense active and receive Gods' promises as conditionally your no longer believing in the present tense active.

You STILL haven't proven your theory about results from PIA action are dependent upon the continuing of the action. Why not?

Further, Paul destroys your theory in Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The red words indicate past action; aorist. People WERE included in Christ WHEN they heard and believed. And they WERE marked with the HS.

The blue words refer to the results of the PAST ACTION of believing: being guaranteed an inheritance as God's possession.

Now, since you so strongly disagree with my posts, please address each point regarding Eph 1:13,14 and explain to me HOW and WHY I am wrong.

If I am wrong, that should be rather easy, as the Truth always has an answer for every question.

I will not address the rest of this long post. Until you can show me that my view of Eph 1:13,14 is wrong in its use of the aorist tense, there is no point in further disussion.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your response here...

Your making strawman arguments no one is talking about again. No one is saying we ignore grammar rules and no one has.

Well, you are wrong AGAIN. I AM saying that you are ignoring grammar rules. Your use of the PIA of believe is an abuse of the tense.

You are trying to change "believe right now for salvation" into "continually believe for salvation". That is NOT how PIA's work. And you should know that.

Hmm nope! LUKE 8:11 stated that they believed only "for a while"[/QUOT]
Why do you continue to cite the WRONG verse? It is v.13 that mentions those who believe for a while, not v.11.

The point is that they fell away when temptation came and departed the faith.

Right. So what? That hardly proves loss of salvation. You have to insert your bias about losing faith to come up with losing salvation.

There are NO VERSES in the Bible that plainly say that salvation can be lost.

You are incorrect applying claiming that they will not come into condemnation because after temptation came they were no longer believing in the present tense indicative but had fallen away into unbelief therefore "unbelievers" present tense indicative

You're doing it AGAIN! The PIA doesn't mean to "keep doing the action for the results to continue". That is false. And you should know better.

The PIA means "believe RIGHT NOW". Or "believe this MOMENT". Both of those statements are in the present tense. And that's ALL the PIA means.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said: "Give me ANY verse that very clearly and plainly (no metaphors, no parables, just straightforward language) says that those who cease to believe will perish. If you can find any such verse, then explain how that verse doesn't contradict what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. You know,that they shall never perish.

You have been provided many facts and scriptures.

Only half true. I've been given many Scriptures. And yet none of them state what you believe. And you've presented no facts about the PIA meaning "keep on believing" or "continue to believe" with the idea that the results of PIA action depend upon the continuation of the action.

But all this is merely another dodge on your part. I have asked for specific verses that plainly say that ceasing to believe results in perishing. And you can't.

All you do is make the false claim that you have. If you had even 1, you would certainly would have quoted it again and again every time I ask for verses.

But you dodge by saying you already have. And, no you have not.

You simply choose to ignore them and not believe them so we will have to agree to disagree.

Nonsense. You've presented no facts to ignore. And I have addressed your errors, which you have ignored.

So yes, we will have to agree to disagree.

JOHN 10:26-27 defines those who receive eternal life and never perish as those who hear God's voice (the Word) and follows it. This is the context your leaving out.

These verses are no definition. They are a description of the action of His sheep.

Do you even understand the difference between definitions and descriptions? It appears that you do not.

If or since that is the case, further discussion cannot progress.

Why would you think they are about losing salvation? Those scriptures were posted as as response to your request to provide scripture that says one becomes saved by hearing and following Gods Word.

Go ahead and just quote 1 of them that actually says salvation is by "following God's Word".

This is a challenge. Are you up to it?

 

[TibiasDad]

You really are trying very hard to squeeze a description of what His sheep DO into the conditions for BECOMING His sheep. Well, that is bogus. And absurd.

Did I ever say that? If you are accusing me of something, why don't you show proof of your accusations?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Go ahead and just quote 1 of them that actually says salvation is by "following God's Word".

This is a challenge. Are you up to it?

Again you make the error of asking us to prove something we haven't asserted. Salvation is not by keeping God's word, keeping God's word is evidence of salvation and belief. It is a mark of certainty that we are loving God and that we know him!

1Jn 2:3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God a is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Doug

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"You really are trying very hard to squeeze a description of what His sheep DO into the conditions for BECOMING His sheep. Well, that is bogus. And absurd."

Did I ever say that? If you are accusing me of something, why don't you show proof of your accusations?
Doug

Sure. Right here.

"You cannot a) exclude any of the terms associated with being a sheep, for they identify the traits of a true sheep" from post #52

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said to LGW:
"Go ahead and just quote 1 of them that actually says salvation is by "following God's Word".

This is a challenge. Are you up to it?"

Again you make the error of asking us to prove something we haven't asserted.

First, I didn't ask you. I asked LGW.

Second, he keeps repeating the claim that salvation is conditioned on "following God's Word".

I made no error. You did, by your faulty claim.

Salvation is not by keeping God's word

Great. Go tell LGW that. You 2 seem to be on the same side.

keeping God's word is evidence of salvation and belief. It is a mark of certainty that we are loving God and that we know him!

This hasn't been the issue, if you've been following these discussions.