Us, and Them

[jcook922]

This is a topic which is sensitive, and I am asking PLEASE for all sides to be mature when discussing this, and not resorting to ad hominem bullcrap. That's a special note to the Christians AND Atheists who always turn threads into fights, I'd say you know who you are, but most of you probably would just say the other camp started it.

With that out of the way! Here we go:

I've been finding the Christian mentality here to really be an Us and Them outlook on people. Instead of "Oh this guy is a hindu." the reactions I'm seeing seem to be "Oh, this guy isn't Christian." I guess I wanted to discuss why it seems Christians either don't care to distinguish between the differences of non-Christians, or decide not to.

I've been around my country, but I've only ever lived in California, so I don't really understand folks not liking eachother based on religion, skin color, etc. Southern California is mostly "If you're an ass, you're an ass."
It isn't meant to be a flame, but I really want to talk about this.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Trying not to offend anyone here too; but from this site I have found this is much more of an American phenomenon. American Christians seem quite different to others I have met.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

This is a topic which is sensitive, and I am asking PLEASE for all sides to be mature when discussing this, and not resorting to ad hominem bullcrap. That's a special note to the Christians AND Atheists who always turn threads into fights, I'd say you know who you are, but most of you probably would just say the other camp started it.

With that out of the way! Here we go:

I've been finding the Christian mentality here to really be an Us and Them outlook on people. Instead of "Oh this guy is a hindu." the reactions I'm seeing seem to be "Oh, this guy isn't Christian." I guess I wanted to discuss why it seems Christians either don't care to distinguish between the differences of non-Christians, or decide not to.

I've been around my country, but I've only ever lived in California, so I don't really understand folks not liking eachother based on religion, skin color, etc. Southern California is mostly "If you're an ass, you're an ass."
It isn't meant to be a flame, but I really want to talk about this.

Hmmm, I see what you mean. In considering how I think about others, I first look to how I've always been - which is accepting each person for what they are and their various beliefs and acknowledging them - and then with the new lens of Christianity which, if I am to believe the Bible (which I do), tells me that Christ is the truth, the life and the way, and therefore all who do not believe in Him are lost.

So, I guess I see them both ways. Sorry, but I've got the flu and I don't think I have articulated this very well - I've confused myself, I hope this makes sense to you.

 

[PassionFruit]

I kind of picked up on this as well. I do see the issues with the dichotomy of "Christians vs. Non-Christians." Because we're being defined by what we aren't.

And at times that can be kind of insulting.

 

[Belk]

I'll have to see if I can find the article I read on this again but the summary is basically that it is an outgrowth of how our brain operates. We make decisions based on placing things into certain categories that we form early in our development. One of the most basic of those categories is the "us" vs "Them".

 

[jcook922]

I just find it very patronizing that instead of looking at non-Christians as people, they paint us with a broad brush. I'm not an Atheist, and they keep painting me with said brush as an Atheist because my relationship with god isn't the same as theirs, and therefore it apparently is invalid.

I've met some very reasonable and friendly Christians here too, don't get me wrong. But it annoys me when both sides ever just decide to talk and talk and talk, but not listen. That's why this forum is full of flame threads, because nobody wants to actually consider the others position.

 

[truthshift]

This is a topic which is sensitive, and I am asking PLEASE for all sides to be mature when discussing this, and not resorting to ad hominem bullcrap. That's a special note to the Christians AND Atheists who always turn threads into fights, I'd say you know who you are, but most of you probably would just say the other camp started it.

With that out of the way! Here we go:

I've been finding the Christian mentality here to really be an Us and Them outlook on people. Instead of "Oh this guy is a hindu." the reactions I'm seeing seem to be "Oh, this guy isn't Christian." I guess I wanted to discuss why it seems Christians either don't care to distinguish between the differences of non-Christians, or decide not to.

I've been around my country, but I've only ever lived in California, so I don't really understand folks not liking eachother based on religion, skin color, etc. Southern California is mostly "If you're an ass, you're an ass."
It isn't meant to be a flame, but I really want to talk about this.

I recognize your point about some/many/most Christians generally not caring to distinguish between the various groups or lack thereof that exist outside of Christianity. Certainly, we're all guilty of clustering people into broad categories. I, myself, admit that I generally do not separate the many sects of Christianity beyond Mormonism, Protestant, and Catholic.

However, I feel that there is a great problem when it comes to Christians viewing the world with such a simple dichotomy. Now, I think much of it has to do with the scripture referring to the ideal that people are saved by Jesus or they are not saved by Jesus. That has a connotation of "There are only two possibilities."

That said, much of America is Christian. 3/4 of the people are going to tell you that they are Christian if you ask them. When you live in a society where your beliefs are the majority, it can be very easy to assume that your beliefs represent the same demographic across the entire globe. Despite actually having the knowledge that this is not the case, the mindset remains the same, for what ever reason.

I don't have anything to base this on other than the experience that I've had in my former church and here on the forum and with other Christians. It at least appears to be a common trend in thought.

I see the mentality like this:

I'm having fun with my graphs.

Anyhow, I feel that we're all guilty of it to an extent because we do not always acknowledge every belief when we make our comments, but certainly there is large room for improvement in obvious places.

 

[Adam007]

Believe me when I say that this forum is a lot more mature than other forums I've belonged to.

Sure we come acroos a couple of screw ups every now and then but for the most part, this forum is quite mature.

 

[Arcon]

ive been in the situation with family of knowing something is wrong and not being able to figure it out myself, or given the answer for weeks. I could just say that something is wrong with a situation and start a little war with people who have already taken sides to defend what they believe in. later on the only peace of mind I could get in it was that the situation was not handled corectly in a christian manner in the first place starting the big heated debate.This is not always the situation, but I feel it can be a big part of life.

 

[jcook922]

The graph made me laugh Truthshift, but the sad part is in the minds of many that's how it is viewed.

I'll also say, in the defense of the Christians here, I really hate it when an atheist goes and throws out some canned response of "Your god doesn't exist deal with it." or any variation there of. It's unproductive, and serves to only put Christians on the defensive understandably, my ideal situation would be discussing differences with interest and being able to agree to disagree.

I swear though, I'm going to burst a vein the next time I see one of those Calvinists pop off some declarative about how they are right, I'm wrong, and how I should just deal with Gods Law in this Christian Country. Are they a really extremist off-shoot of christianity or something? I've never really heard about them until I came here but they seem extremely militant.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

This is a topic which is sensitive, and I am asking PLEASE for all sides to be mature when discussing this, and not resorting to ad hominem bullcrap.

Very difficult when the common/typical stance of the secularist, is that a Bible-affirming Christian is an idiot and far, far worse. You just can't seperate the atheist/progressive/liberal from their pompuos stance that they have come to enlightenment from what they have been exposed to and a "Christian" that believes that fairy tale stuff, is to be excused from society to live somewhere of the choosing of the secularist.

That is certainly why I connect the dots of "the usual suspects."

That's a special note to the Christians AND Atheists who always turn threads into fights, I'd say you know who you are, but most of you probably would just say the other camp started it.

I certainly start fights. Because, I know it's coming anyway and throwing the first punch is usually the best formula to drive away an attacker.

C'mon Jcook, the non's and anti's here in just about every single incident have no desire to be here but to shread the Bible-believer. And they do this with astonishingly common rote. Not much personal insight that wasn't given to them by some other non or anti.

With that out of the way! Here we go:

OK.

I've been finding the Christian mentality here to really be an Us and Them outlook on people.

That IS the Christian outlook. "IN the world and not of it." No matter how you slice that, non and anti's know what's being said. And certainly other religion practioners know it too. It is what it is.

Instead of "Oh this guy is a hindu." the reactions I'm seeing seem to be "Oh, this guy isn't Christian."

That is what Christians do. That is also what everyone else does as well. "OH! YOU didn't vote for Obama?" You must be one of "them."

I guess I wanted to discuss why it seems Christians either don't care to distinguish between the differences of non-Christians, or decide not to.

I can only speak for myself, and I have had an atheist write to me that I am not really a Christian because I am mean to them and that my positions are something they cannot accept. There is no other stance in which is offered to us to take. Once you become a Christian - and note, it is a choice - you take on the teachings of Christ Jesus and the Apostles.

That is: You are now on your way somewhere else. Good choice. Now, here, here is how to live with OTHER Christians and get by in a world that is hostile to this uniqueness.

Watch the reactions to that?

I've been around my country, but I've only ever lived in California, so I don't really understand folks not liking eachother based on religion, skin color, etc. Southern California is mostly "If you're an ass, you're an ass."

I have lived in California for the last twenty years. There is most definately a divide between people here. Especially when you get into the cities.

It isn't meant to be a flame, but I really want to talk about this.

If the Christian-bashing is kept to a minimum then you may get a few posts to use.

Because it's you, I'll keep my fangs and claws tucked in.

 

[Washington]

In as much as this is a Christian forum wherein the thrust of most issues revolves around Christianity, I would expect most conversations be more of a we (christian) vs. them (doesn't make much difference who the enemy is because the issues are primarily Christian ones.). Does it really make a difference if someone is a Hindu or an atheist when it comes to their criticism of Christians or their religion? Most commonly not.

As far as not liking someone because of their religion, skin color, etc, this is an altogether other issue.

If a Christian is disagreeing on a point because of their opponent's skin color or religion rather than what they've said, then it's a simple matter of stupidity, which I really haven't seen around here. At least none that comes to mind. Most Christians, and others, address their opponent's points, or in some cases their lack of personal ability, but not their religion, skin color, political stance, age, or other irrelevancies. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

[truthshift]

I'll also say, in the defense of the Christians here, I really hate it when an atheist goes and throws out some canned response of "Your god doesn't exist deal with it." or any variation there of.

Yes, I agree. I think it is essential that all opposing views in a discussion are explained and supported logically and in detail, as to why they support their own notions. Witty quips and brush-off tactics are unacceptable and will not do anything but cause the loss of intellectual respect among peers.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Christians are actually those that question authority.

That's what has them in this Us and Them situation.

The secularists are trying incredibly hard to dominate society and the only thing in their way is Christians.

Here's a glimpse of Christian logic and morality:

John Locke

John Locke (b. 1632, d. 1704) was a British philosopher, Oxford academic and medical researcher, whose association with Anthony Ashley Cooper (later the First Earl of Shaftesbury) led him to become successively a government official charged with collecting information about trade and colonies, economic writer, opposition political activist, and finally a revolutionary whose cause ultimately triumphed in the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

Much of Locke's work is characterized by opposition to authoritarianism.

This opposition is both on the level of the individual person and on the level of institutions such as government and church. For the individual, Locke wants each of us to use reason to search after truth rather than simply accept the opinion of authorities or be subject to superstition.

He wants us to proportion assent to propositions to the evidence for them. On the level of institutions it becomes important to distinguish the legitimate from the illegitimate functions of institutions and to make the corresponding distinction for the uses of force by these institutions. The positive side of Locke's anti-authoritarianism is that he believes that using reason to try to grasp the truth, and determining the legitimate functions of institutions will optimize human flourishing for the individual and society both in respect to its material and spiritual welfare.

This in turn, amounts to following natural law and the fulfillment of the divine purpose for humanity. Locke's monumental An Essay Concerning Human Understanding concerns itself with determining the limits of human understanding in respect to God, the self, natural kinds and artifacts, as well as a variety of different kinds of ideas.

It thus tells us in some detail what one can legitimately claim to know and what one cannot. Locke also wrote a variety of important political, religious and educational works including the Two Treatises of Government, the Letters Concerning Toleration, The Reasonableness of Christianity and Some Thoughts Concerning Education.

 

[jcook922]

Very difficult when the common/typical stance of the secularist, is that a Bible-affirming Christian is an idiot and far, far worse. You just can't seperate the atheist/progressive/liberal from their pompuos stance that they have come to enlightenment from what they have been exposed to and a "Christian" that believes that fairy tale stuff, is to be excused from society to live somewhere of the choosing of the secularist.



That is certainly why I connect the dots of "the usual suspects."

I would say the same of your side at times Polycarp. I could have said "Very difficult when the common/typical stance of the Christian, is that a rational atheist is an idiot and far, far worse. You just can't seperate the Christian/Conservative/Zealot from their pompous stance that they have come to enlightenment from what they have been exposed to and an "Atheist" that denies the truth, is to be excused from society to live somewhere of the choosing of the Christians."

I'm not mocking you here, I'm just saying that Christianity isn't suddenly innocent of doing the same to non-Christians. There are parts of Christianity AND non-Christians who conspire to totally suppress the other, and then a majority who are fine with live and let live. I find many pompous Christians who try to patronize me and tell me I'm wrong, and not respect my beliefs. Why should I respect them at all? The culture and belief system is different, but the human BEHAVIOR is a mirror-image.

I certainly start fights. Because, I know it's coming anyway and throwing the first punch is usually the best formula to drive away an attacker.

C'mon Jcook, the non's and anti's here in just about every single incident have no desire to be here but to shread the Bible-believer. And they do this with astonishingly common rote. Not much personal insight that wasn't given to them by some other non or anti.

I do see where you're coming from here PCF, that there are those looking to just anger christians. I think that's wrong, but at the same time there are Christians who are out to do the same to non-Christians. If a secularist decides to put out his opinion, then odds are he'll just get a ton of scripture thrown at him on most controversial issues, which is where our understanding of eachother departs and all rational debate is lost.

OK.



That IS the Christian outlook. "IN the world and not of it." No matter how you slice that, non and anti's know what's being said. And certainly other religion practioners know it too. It is what it is.



That is what Christians do. That is also what everyone else does as well. "OH! YOU didn't vote for Obama?" You must be one of "them."

I don't know, for the longest time I was going to vote McCain, and I ended up leaning towards Obama and look forward to some facets of his presidency, and others not. Can nobody seperate the good from the bad? Why is everything so polarized to everyone?

I can only speak for myself, and I have had an atheist write to me that I am not really a Christian because I am mean to them and that my positions are something they cannot accept. There is no other stance in which is offered to us to take. Once you become a Christian - and note, it is a choice - you take on the teachings of Christ Jesus and the Apostles.

I had a Christian woman tell me in a News & Current Events thread today that I am not a Humanist because I supported capital punishment of a soldier convicted of rape and murder under the UCMJ, so I feel you there. Being told that I do not represent MY faith correctly, especially by someone not of my faith, makes me just want to give them the finger.

That is: You are now on your way somewhere else. Good choice. Now, here, here is how to live with OTHER Christians and get by in a world that is hostile to this uniqueness.

Watch the reactions to that?



I have lived in California for the last twenty years. There is most definately a divide between people here. Especially when you get into the cities.

I grew up in San Jaouqin Valley in my younger years, and then the High Desert(Victorville) for another few years, and have since been in the Los Angeles area. I don't see people discriminating on people on the basis of valid religion, and I usually don't see people judging others on skin color. On the way people dress? Sure. On the way you talk? Sure. But not based on skin or religion.

I'm guilty of it, when I see someone dressed with sagging pants and a hat without a bent bill and a sticker on it, flipped to the side, then I immediately am on the defensive and don't like said person. And when it comes to religion, I did more than just harass the teenage girls in junior high and high school who were in some strange Wicca/Pagan phase. While I respect that there are people who take such beliefs seriously, a teenage girl who decides to do it to be edgy doesn't deserve respect.

If the Christian-bashing is kept to a minimum then you may get a few posts to use.

Because it's you, I'll keep my fangs and claws tucked in.

Responses in bold. I'm wary of you posting here PCF, let's hope we can trust that the discourse is kept mature. Some of this might sound like a flame, and some of it IS negative criticism of Christians, but it's not immature criticism, it's honest and mature discourse on the subject, so let's keep the whole thread as such.

What makes this strange to me is that my family is Christian. My mother is a very devout Christian who always attends church, but I am the way I am because of how she raised me. My father died when I was 13, so she infused alot of my ideals into me around my teenage years when I talked to her like one adult to another. She instilled in me the absolute, undeniable ideal that all people who are different can co-exist and be tolerant of eachother, friction is inevitable but all people should be willing to listen to the other side and discuss mutual viewpoints to further understand eachother. You ALWAYS have a voice, and nobody can take that from you, but with that right comes the responsibility to do the public service of being the voice of reason when you understand that.

It means more to me than anything to be a voice of reason and understanding between people, so we can better understand eachother and appreciate our differences as human beings. I find intolerance and an "I'm right, you're wrong. Just shutup this isn't a discussion." attitude totally foul in any sort of environment with the exception of certain authority and leadership roles (Such as the military, at times it's necessary)

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Yes, I agree. I think it is essential that all opposing views in a discussion are explained and supported logically and in detail, as to why they support their own notions. Witty quips and brush-off tactics are unacceptable and will not do anything but cause the loss of intellectual respect among peers.

An amazing piece of writing:

A Letter Concerning Toleration

by John Locke
1689
Translated by William Popple

​

http://www.constitution.org/jl/tolerati.htm

A glimpse of a lengthy work:

Again: That Church can have no right to be tolerated by the magistrate which is constituted upon such a bottom that all those who enter into it do thereby ipso facto deliver themselves up to the protection and service of another prince. For by this means the magistrate would give way to the settling of a foreign jurisdiction in his own country and suffer his own people to be listed, as it were, for soldiers against his own Government.

Nor does the frivolous and fallacious distinction between the Court and the Church afford any remedy to this inconvenience; especially when both the one and the other are equally subject to the absolute authority of the same person, who has not only power to persuade the members of his Church to whatsoever he lists, either as purely religious, or in order thereunto, but can also enjoin it them on pain of eternal fire. It is ridiculous for any one to profess himself to be a Mahometan only in his religion, but in everything else a faithful subject to a Christian magistrate, whilst at the same time he acknowledges himself bound to yield blind obedience to the Mufti of Constantinople, who himself is entirely obedient to the Ottoman Emperor and frames the feigned oracles of that religion according to his pleasure. But this Mahometan living amongst Christians would yet more apparently renounce their government if he acknowledged the same person to be head of his Church who is the supreme magistrate in the state.

Lastly, those are not at all to be tolerated who deny the being of a God. Promises, covenants, and oaths, which are the bonds of human society, can have no hold upon an atheist. The taking away of God, though but even in thought, dissolves all; besides also, those that by their atheism undermine and destroy all religion, can have no pretence of religion whereupon to challenge the privilege of a toleration. As for other practical opinions, though not absolutely free from all error, if they do not tend to establish domination over others, or civil impunity to the Church in which they are taught, there can be no reason why they should not be tolerated.

For the whole letter: http://www.constitution.org/jl/tolerati.htm

 

[Chesterton]

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Responses in bold. I'm wary of you posting here PCF, let's hope we can trust that the discourse is kept mature. Some of this might sound like a flame, and some of it IS negative criticism of Christians, but it's not immature criticism, it's honest and mature discourse on the subject, so let's keep the whole thread as such.

But as I have shown, that the anti-Christians cannot take being challenged that they are ignorant and vitriolic. Which, is their attitudes towards Christians that will not capitualte their beliefs to "fit it" are always subject to.

What makes this strange to me is that my family is Christian. My mother is a very devout Christian who always attends church, but I am the way I am because of how she raised me. My father died when I was 13, so she infused alot of my ideals into me around my teenage years when I talked to her like one adult to another. She instilled in me the absolute, undeniable ideal that all people who are different can co-exist and be tolerant of eachother, friction is inevitable but all people should be willing to listen to the other side and discuss mutual viewpoints to further understand eachother. You ALWAYS have a voice, and nobody can take that from you, but with that right comes the responsibility to do the public service of being the voice of reason when you understand that.

Can you be a voice of reason if your cumbayah perspective allows predators not only a seat at the table, but one in which they are the childcare workers?

A fair question.

It means more to me than anything to be a voice of reason and understanding between people, so we can better understand eachother and appreciate our differences as human beings.

Yes, but you also know that you are pushing 5.56 live rounds into your 30-round mags because there is a time when tolerance is impossible. And that bayonet in your web gear says something even louder and more conservative. It is your last hope for life when THAT situation arises. There are people you simple cannot reason with. All the lib hugs and fuzzies are just a denial of reality. Real reality, not just a theoretical hypothetical situation in Pysche class.

I find intolerance and an "I'm right, you're wrong. Just shutup this isn't a discussion." attitude totally foul in any sort of environment with the exception of certain authority and leadership roles (Such as the military, at times it's necessary)

Yet, that is the Humanist and atheist declarations to a tee.

How is it not?

 

[Polycarp_fan]

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

For rightly dividing truth. Be more specific.

Which Jesus knows starts things going.

 

[Chaplain David]

This is a topic which is sensitive, and I am asking PLEASE for all sides to be mature when discussing this, and not resorting to ad hominem bullcrap. That's a special note to the Christians AND Atheists who always turn threads into fights, I'd say you know who you are, but most of you probably would just say the other camp started it.

With that out of the way! Here we go:

I've been finding the Christian mentality here to really be an Us and Them outlook on people. Instead of "Oh this guy is a hindu." the reactions I'm seeing seem to be "Oh, this guy isn't Christian." I guess I wanted to discuss why it seems Christians either don't care to distinguish between the differences of non-Christians, or decide not to.

I've been around my country, but I've only ever lived in California, so I don't really understand folks not liking eachother based on religion, skin color, etc. Southern California is mostly "If you're an ass, you're an ass."
It isn't meant to be a flame, but I really want to talk about this.

I'm not sure that I totally agree with your OP but have always said that what causes major problems in threads and between people is when we do not address the OP or issues and instead, make things "personal" by attacking the poster in some fashion. If we would all be nice and treat each other with kindness even when addressing hot topics, it would go a long way toward making CF a friendlier place. Having said that I must admit to having made some mistakes in the personal relations department. God bless.