unorthodox anglicanism spreading

[Colabomb]

Wow, it blows my mind to hear Anglicans talking like this LOL! But it's a good reminder to me that these attitudes exist.

It is not only, (as dad pointed out) the majority position of the AC, but the Only position of the AC until the twentieth century.

 

[No Swansong]

It is not only, (as dad pointed out) the majority position of the AC, but the Only position of the AC until the twentieth century.

I still have not researched population son it may not be the majority position as far as population. (it may I just haven't checked) but it is the majority of the provinces.

 

[Colabomb]

I was referring to Provinces.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Okay, what about women teaching in seminaries/Bible Colleges? I know of at least three women with Doctorates in Theology and Divinity (and those are just people connected to folk I know, I'm sure there are loads of others...) are they allowed to train future priests, despite the fact that they're better read and trained to teach them? Are they only allowed to do it for those taking their B. Th, even though that may be the bulk of a priest's theological education? Or should women stay out of the field of theology completely?

Provided that the position in a seminary does not carry some sort of doctrinal authority over the church, I don't see a problem here. The issue in scripture is one of authority in the church, not in the school, or the nation, etc.
When it comes to training priests, the issue becomes a little more foggy, because it could be argued at that point you are beginning to touch on determining doctrine in the church. You would have to answer the question "is training a priest a function of the church, or a secular function". If it is a function of the church then I would be tempted to say it requires the authority to teach doctrine, if it is merely secular, then it requires no ecclesiastical authority.
For me, I would say even if the female professor is training future priests, I don't see a problem as long as it is solely secular education.. meaning the priests are not required as an issue of authority to accept everything the professor teaches, in the same sense that they would be, say with a bishop.

 

[Finella]

You mean, a male with a sex change operation? Please clarify.

No, as pointed out before, Klinefelter's syndrome. Normally you only have pairs of each chromosome. But the last pair, the 23rd, is the one that determines your gender. Trisomies are genetic conditions that happen spontaneously at conception, where a third chromosome appears instead of just a pair. Such conditions lead to Down's Syndrome and other, more severe conditions. When the third chomosome appears in the 23rd pairing, then you have Klinefelter's syndrome.

Actually, there are many people who have this condition who appear female, but if their genes are tested you would see that they have the Y chromosome indicating they also are -- genetically -- male, as well as female.

So no, it is not at all a sex change operation.


And by the way, no one answered the question. Would such a person, if s/he had both male and female characteristics (as a previous person pointed out was a possibility) be Male enough to be a priest, if s/he was so called? If so, why? If not, why?

I would call her a butchered female. A sinning female. Same goes for a butchered male. Neither of them belong in the pulpit, for transsexual lifestyles are sinful. Scripture is so clear on this I can't believe this is even a question!

It's not a silly question. It's simply to clarify what use to define gender. And transgendered persons are not transsexuals. Transsexuals are men who dress as women, but stay male because they want to be male.

Transgendered persons are persons who deeply believe they were born the wrong gender and may undergo hormonal or surgical treatment to become the opposite gender. Is it sinful to be transgendered?

I am asking so that I can get an understanding of what those who say men are the only gender fit for ordination define as "gender" and "male."

 

[Groce]

Transgendered persons are persons who deeply believe they were born the wrong gender and may undergo hormonal or surgical treatment to become the opposite gender. Is it sinful to be transgendered?

Yes, they are rejecting the will of God. If I was mad male it was His will, if I was made female it was His will.

 

[paleodoxy]

No, as pointed out before, Klinefelter's syndrome. Normally you only have pairs of each chromosome. But the last pair, the 23rd, is the one that determines your gender. Trisomies are genetic conditions that happen spontaneously at conception, where a third chromosome appears instead of just a pair. Such conditions lead to Down's Syndrome and other, more severe conditions. When the third chomosome appears in the 23rd pairing, then you have Klinefelter's syndrome.

Actually, there are many people who have this condition who appear female, but if their genes are tested you would see that they have the Y chromosome indicating they also are -- genetically -- male, as well as female.

So no, it is not at all a sex change operation.


And by the way, no one answered the question. Would such a person, if s/he had both male and female characteristics (as a previous person pointed out was a possibility) be Male enough to be a priest, if s/he was so called? If so, why? If not, why?



It's not a silly question. It's simply to clarify what use to define gender. And transgendered persons are not transsexuals. Transsexuals are men who dress as women, but stay male because they want to be male.

Transgendered persons are persons who deeply believe they were born the wrong gender and may undergo hormonal or surgical treatment to become the opposite gender. Is it sinful to be transgendered?

I am asking so that I can get an understanding of what those who say men are the only gender fit for ordination define as "gender" and "male."

Finella,

Turner's Syndrome effects girls, and Klinefelter's boys. There doesn't seem to be any confusion over the ultimate gender of the effected subject. Even if there were cases where it were impossible to know for sure what the gender of the individual was, how does it logically follow from this that women may be ordained?

One of the 23 pairs of human chromosomes is called the sex chromosome. Among the most common chromosomal abnormalities are those that involve missing or extra sex chromosomes (referred to as X and Y). Normally, females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. Abnormalities involving the X or Y can affect sexual development and may cause infertility, growth abnormalities, and in some cases, behavioral and learning problems. However, most affected individuals live essentially normal lives.

Turner syndrome is a sex chromosome abnormality that affects about 1 in 2500 girls. Girls with Turner syndrome have only one X chromosome, instead of the normal two. They usually are sterile, and do not undergo normal pubertal changes unless they are treated with sex hormones. Affected girls are short, though treatment with growth and sex hormones can help increase height. Some have other health problems, including heart defects. Girls with Turner syndrome have normal intelligence, though some have difficulties with mathematics and spatial concepts.

About 1 in 1000 to 2000 females has an extra X chromosome, referred to as triple X. These girls, who tend to be tall, have no consistent pattern of physical abnormalities, undergo normal puberty, and appear to be fertile. Intelligence is normal, though learning disabilities are fairly common. Because these girls are healthy and have a normal appearance, parents are most likely to know their daughter has this chromosomal abnormality only if they’ve undergone prenatal testing (with amniocentesis or CVS).

Klinefelter syndrome is a sex chromosome abnormality that affects about 1 in 600 to 800 boys. Boys with Klinefelter syndrome have two, or occasionally more, X chromosomes along with their Y chromosome (males normally have one X and one Y chromosome). Affected boys tend to be tall with normal intelligence, though learning disabilities are common. As a group, they have more problems with judgment and impulse control than XY males. As adults, they produce lower than normal amounts of the male hormone testosterone (and often are treated with this hormone) and are infertile.

 

[Simon_Templar]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gerdie again.

Gerdie...have you met Simon Templar yet - great guy...I think ya'll outta chat

Aaron (aka the "matchmaker")

​

If you are to have any hope in your match making career, I suggest you make your first rule before embarking on introductions, a throrough examination of each party's ring finger!

 

[Simon_Templar]

Wow, it blows my mind to hear Anglicans talking like this LOL! But it's a good reminder to me that these attitudes exist.

I know!!! Anglicans that actually take the bible at face value and view it as an authoritative constitution of the faith, as opposed to a random assemblage of polite suggestions. I also thought that these were on the verge of extinction, BUT apparently there are a couple still hanging around here and there.

As for myself of course.. I don't go in for nonsense like that.. I just don't like women and think they need to be kept in their place!

 

[Iosias]

Yes, they are rejecting the will of God. If I was mad male it was His will, if I was made female it was His will.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'd like to know what I Tim.2:12-15 means to most of you. Any takers?

It means exactly what it says, to me anyway. (although verse 12 literally means "to excercise dominion over".)

 

[Finella]

Finella,

Turner's Syndrome effects girls, and Klinefelter's boys. There doesn't seem to be any confusion over the ultimate gender of the effected subject. Even if there were cases where it were impossible to know for sure what the gender of the individual was, how does it logically follow from this that women may be ordained?

Thank you for your corrections. When I have more time, I'll look up some other references to see if I was completely off the mark -- but I do believe there have been cases where there's a difference between genetic gender and physical gender. I'll get back to you.

I'm not saying that such confusion directly leads to the argument supporting women's ordination. As I've said a few times by now, I'm trying to understand what those who oppose women's ordination define gender as being. If gender is such a sticking point, then perhaps we should understand what that very thing is.

What is "maleness" and what is "femaleness"? The question was asked earlier if I remained a female after I die. I have no idea. Was I female before my spirit entered my body? Did I become more female due to social conditioning as I was raised? Or did the hormones made by my body make me more female in mind and spirit as well? Is my spirit shaped by my bodily experience of being a female? If I we are one with God at the end of existence, then does gender matter anymore? If there is no marriage in heaven, why would it?

 

[Timothy]

Actually Higgs the majority of the provinces within the Anglican Communion talk like this.

Actually Higgs the majority of the provinces within the Anglican Communion talk like this.

No. Even those churches which refuse to ordain women still allow women to preach and teach the congregation as licensed lay readers. I should know, I'm part of one of those provinces, and we have... at least four licensed female readers who preach and teach. I've never heard of a province which denied that.

 

[Gerdie]

What is "maleness" and what is "femaleness"? The question was asked earlier if I remained a female after I die. I have no idea. Was I female before my spirit entered my body? Did I become more female due to social conditioning as I was raised? Or did the hormones made by my body make me more female in mind and spirit as well? Is my spirit shaped by my bodily experience of being a female? If I we are one with God at the end of existence, then does gender matter anymore? If there is no marriage in heaven, why would it?

The wonders of God. To be honest, i don't think you will find conclusive evidence for these questions, you may find what a scholar has said about the subject, or what they have concluded using science. I don't think that you can use things of this world to completly grasp the greatness of God. I personally don't think it is just one of the options, it is a ton of factors all in play at the same time. My sister is on the extreame side of being a tom boy, my niece has looked up to her as long as i can remember and is also a tom boy, yet they are still female. It is not just how they were raised, or just their genetic makeup, or even just their spirit, i think that God has pulled all of these resorces together to make a female, or male what they are. As to whether or not we will have a gender when we leave earth, i honestly have no idea, but for now we are both on earth and God has devised gender for all of us.

 

[No Swansong]

No. Even those churches which refuse to ordain women still allow women to preach and teach the congregation as licensed lay readers. I should know, I'm part of one of those provinces, and we have... at least four licensed female readers who preach and teach. I've never heard of a province which denied that.

Forgive me Timothy however I believe the post to which she was responding, to which I was responding, did allow for women as lay readers and preachers.

To be completely honest with you I think lay preachers and teachers are a great idea and (drumroll please) It appears to me that there may be ample evidence that would permit women as deacons. While I am still not sure about this I can say that there does appear to be scriptural evidence that would permit this.

So if I misunderstood what the post she was referring to was asserting then I apologize but I do support women lay preachers and teachers.

 

[paleodoxy]

The REC has deaconesses, female lay lectors, and female Sunday School teachers. Ordination to the bishopric/rectorship is off limits, of course.

 

[Catherineanne]

The Church of England yesterday overturned 2,000 years of history and took the significant step of approving plans for women bishops, a decision that is likely to prompt an exodus of traditionalists and widen rifts between Canterbury and Rome.

Good-oh.

Thanks for the news, Groce.

This had to be inevitable, following the ordination of women, and like it or not, the ordination of women to the Roman Catholic church is going to have to happen, or they will find themselves, as the Anglicans did, running out of priests.

In fact they already are. In my home town there used to be Catholic services following the Anglican ones in the Parish Church, but these have now discontinued because there is only one priest in the whole town, and he does not have the time to officiate in the Parish Church, as well as his own.

Catholics are being left without shepherds. I think God may well be trying to tell them something.

 

[Colabomb]

Good-oh.

Thanks for the news, Groce.

This had to be inevitable, following the ordination of women, and like it or not, the ordination of women to the Roman Catholic church is going to have to happen, or they will find themselves, as the Anglicans did, running out of priests.

In fact they already are. In my home town there used to be Catholic services following the Anglican ones in the Parish Church, but these have now discontinued because there is only one priest in the whole town, and he does not have the time to officiate in the Parish Church, as well as his own.

Catholics are being left without shepherds. I think God may well be trying to tell them something.

Female priests is not an inevitable outcome. I do believe that those who do ordain priests, always will, but there are many who never will.

BTW. The RCC is about defending what they consider orthodoxy. I doubt they will abandon their view of orthodoxy just to meet an logisitical need.

 

[paleodoxy]

What is "maleness" and what is "femaleness"? The question was asked earlier if I remained a female after I die. I have no idea.

Was Jesus a male after He died? When He rose from the dead, was He still a male? When He ascended into heaven, was He still male? Does Jesus still have a body? Is a male Human Jesus seated at the right hand of God the Father?

If I we are one with God at the end of existence, then does gender matter anymore? If there is no marriage in heaven, why would it?

If the eternal Godhead can be identified in male terms (Father) apart from a physical human body, and if Jesus is still a male, and if Christians are going to be raised from the dead without losing their essential identities then.....

 

[No Swansong]

Female priests is not an inevitable outcome. I do believe that those who do ordain priests, always will, but there are many who never will.

BTW. The RCC is about defending what they consider orthodoxy. I doubt they will abandon their view of orthodoxy just to meet an logisitical need.

Actually it is deeper than that to the Roman Catholic Church male clergy is a Dogma. It is something they do not believe they have the authority to change. Celibacy is a different matter, the RCC readily admits that they could end the celibacy requirement (in some branches of the Roman Church it never has been enforced) tomorrow if they so chose.