Unlimited Atonement is the teaching of Scripture

[God all in all]

I was calvinist once...Not any more. Is God like the builder Jesus mentions who started to build but didn't calculate the expences well so he was not able to finish it?!?? God sent His Son to save the world. If we say that at the end the entire world is not saved, but part of it goes either to eternal destruction, hell or eternal separation from Him - than we say God is either not able or not willing to save all... If we claim God is able but not willing to save all (predestination) - we claim that He requires from us something He doesn't require of Himself (forgiveness to those who don't deserve it). But forgiveness is not optional for christians... And who less deserves to be saved if not those who reject Jesus as Saviour even in this life on earth? On the other hand, if we say God is not willing, that He purposely destines some for destruction - why did He bother to send and "offer" His Son for the whole World then?!? He might have had offered Him just for the elect...But Bible clearly says He died for the WORLD… if Jesus died for the WORLD, and part of it still remains condemned - Jesus mission is basically failure at the end! Then He indeed died in vain, for He saved just the percentage of the whole world He came to save!! A part of His body and blood went to waste.. If the world is not saved at the end - then the "death" is not eliminated and Bible lies when it says that "there will be no more death". Besides, if Jesus suffered death for the sins of the world in 3 days - how come the whole eternity of suffering/destruction/hell is not enough for elimination of the greatest sin - rejection of Him and His free gift?!? If He paid the price for ALL sins of the whole world but His marvelous deed doesn't cover the worst sin of all (=rejection of His salvation) – then He basically failed to provide for the worst sin of all! Then He missed the mark alltogether… It simply cannot be… Jesus is the saviour of the World and all mankind. Christian universalism, pages of tentmaker.org. I reccommend it to every heart and mind …do read.
God bless 

 

[Anto9us]

"Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect"

bunk.

Christ died for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD !

"Behold the Lamb of God - who taketh away THE SINS OF

THE WORLD "

 

[BryanW92]

"Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect"

bunk.

Christ died for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD !

"Behold the Lamb of God - who taketh away THE SINS OF

THE WORLD "

Efficient for some. Sufficient for all.

 

[Anto9us]

You are one of the reasons I am coming back into this "Debate a Calvinist" thread Bryan

Couldn't let WESLEYAN FORUM alone - could ya?

Couldn't go by the CF sub-forum rules - could ya?

 

[God all in all]

Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…

We are saved by grace through faith. Nor grace nor faith are of ourselves – BOTH (grace & faith) are gift of God! How can anyone construe, from this particular verse, a wide-spread fleshly doctrine that grace is from God, but we supply faith (we „respond“ by faith)??? It is twisting of Scripture and reading in it which is NOT there!!

The verse plainly says, after mentioning grace AND faith, „and that not of yourselves“!

So WHAT is not of ourselves? Grace? Faith? BOTH!! „And that not of yourselves“ is refering to BOTH things mentioned ahead – grace & faith.

Praise be to God alone!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Christ has died for all the sins of the world except that of persistent unbelief.

What about the billions of people who were born,lived and died and never heard of Christ?

If Christ had only atoned for the sins of the elect then it would be unjust to condemn unbelievers for not believing in Him since He wouldn’t have been sent to them as their Saviour. So the mere fact that unbelievers are condemned for not believing in Him shows that He atoned for their sins as well.

People are judged for their sin, not for unbelief.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

. . .Christ didn’t atone for the non-elect and isn’t their Saviour nevertheless they are condemned for not accepting Him.

If you would rid yourself of the idea that people are hell-bound for not believing in Christ, you will have your answer.

They are condemned for not loving God with heart, soul, mind and strength and neighbor as self. They are condemned for rebellion against their creator.

Their unbelief only condemns them because it keeps them from being forgiven. It's not the unbelief, but their sin that condemns them.

 

[Reformed Psalmist]

It looks to me by the direction of your writing is that because God is loving that He is obligated to provide the potential for everyone to be saved. I cannot see were the potential aspect is worth our time. That kind of thinking is not really how we reason on a daily basis. If I was pre occupied with the potential of good or bad coming to me I couldn't enjoy the use of my gifts or the things that I possess because I would be focusing on what could potentially happen. I certainly do not think this is a good way to be imaginative.

Because Gods work of salvation is a secret work that He does upon the hearts of people it is obvious that there is no man on earth that has been instrumental in the work that God does on the heart. I mean lets just imagine Gods view of this earth as He sees the beginning from the end. We see a very small view of how God prepares the heart, provides the Spirit to make a man aware that he is a sinner and needs Christ, and what were the essential tools used in the act of new birth.

Yes He saves men by word and Spirit but I never read in the bible where He provided man with words that have not been revealed to man. All of Gods word is a revealed word. The bible does speak of us as instruments who bring His word but it doesn't lower the essential activity to implant His word into that soul by precluding that because He promises to use His word that it must be in this particular situation and to this particular person. I find that most of my reading into what God is doing or gonna do is from a universal and timeless view as opposed to my finite and limited view. We really are most free when we are confounded by how God works.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Neither.
Why would God waste His agonizing shed blood for those He knew weren't going to receive it. Even one ounce would be wasted.

No,"whomever,whosoever" words are metaphors for the Elect. It's the only thing that makes sense with an omniscient God.

Otherwise,why would He do that? unless you limit omniscience.

Keep in mind though, when He( Jesus) was dying on the cross He said Father Forgive them for they know not what they do. That being the case, unless all of those people standing there were elect why would He say that?

 

[dogs4thewin]

You are one of the reasons I am coming back into this "Debate a Calvinist" thread Bryan

Couldn't let WESLEYAN FORUM alone - could ya?

Couldn't go by the CF sub-forum rules - could ya?

deleted as I was not sure the comment was within the rules.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It looks to me by the direction of your writing is that because God is loving that He is obligated to provide the potential for everyone to be saved.

What would be the error to believe that God has obligated Himself to provide for the free gift to everyone? I believe that Jn 3:16 supports that.

I cannot see were the potential aspect is worth our time. That kind of thinking is not really how we reason on a daily basis.

Possibly not for the reformed, but yes, for the rest of us, including Arminians, of which I am not one, that is how we reason on a daily basis. God is love, and He loves all of His creatures. There are no verses that support the notion that God only loves the elect, or that Christ died only for the elect.

If I was pre occupied with the potential of good or bad coming to me I couldn't enjoy the use of my gifts or the things that I possess because I would be focusing on what could potentially happen.

But the Bible says the just shall live by faith, and to cast all our cares on Him. If we do those things, we won't focus on the 'potentials'.

Because Gods work of salvation is a secret work that He does upon the hearts of people it is obvious that there is no man on earth that has been instrumental in the work that God does on the heart.

There is nothing secretive about God's work. To those who believe, He regenerates them.

I mean lets just imagine Gods view of this earth as He sees the beginning from the end. We see a very small view of how God prepares the heart, provides the Spirit to make a man aware that he is a sinner and needs Christ, and what were the essential tools used in the act of new birth.

New birth follows belief. It does not cause belief.

We really are most free when we are confounded by how God works.

How does this work; that our freedom is based on being "confounded". That confounds me.