Unlevened Bread

[ZiSunka]

Hmm,, apparently, Jesus was doing it right, and the Jews were doing it wrong. Passover is the day BEFORE the first day of Unleavened Bread, not the first day of Unleavened Bread:

4 "These are the Lord's appointed times, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5 The Passover to the Lord comes in the first month, at twilight on the fourteenth day of the month. 6 The Festival of Unleavened Bread to the Lord is on the fifteenth day of the same month.

It seems they may have been combining passover and unleavened bread into a single holiday. Passover is a feast day, but Unleavened Bread is a sabbath, when no work should be done, like cooking and cleaning up.

 

[Gold Dragon]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

Judaism 101: Pesach

We may not eat chametz during Pesach; we may not even own it or derive benefit from it. We may not even feed it to our pets or cattle. All chametz, including utensils used to cook chametz, must either be disposed of or sold to a non-Jew (they can be repurchased after the holiday). Pets' diets must be changed for the holiday, or the pets must be sold to a non-Jew (like the food and utensils, the pets can be repurchased after the holiday ends).
...
The process of cleaning the home of all chametz in preparation for Pesach is an enormous task. To do it right, you must prepare for several weeks and spend several days scrubbing everything down, going over the edges of your stove and fridge with a toothpick and a Q-Tip, covering all surfaces that come in contact with foil or shelf-liner, etc., etc., etc. After the cleaning is completed, the morning before the seder, a formal search of the house for chametz is undertaken, and any remaining chametz is burned.

 

[Jeffrey A]

I was just studying this passage (John 18) about Christ's last supper and the next chapter (John 19) about his time with Pilate, and I don't think it was the seder, either, because in 19, when Pilate wanted to know the charges against Jesus, he had to go outside to talk to the Jews because they wouldn't come in to his building so they wouldn't be defiled before eating the passover. But it was late at night, perhaps early the next morning. If it had been the passover, they would have already eaten their seder meal. Then later in the day, it says that it is the day of preparation for the passover. Whatever meal Christ ate, it may not have been the seder meal.

The very first thing a Jew does to prepare for Passover is to clean the house of all leaven. While this cleaning is actually done over the course of the weeks leading up to Passover, there is a specific ceremony performed on the first day of Passover, the night of the 14th, just after sunset, just after the 14th has begun. This ceremony, called the "bedikat chametz" -- the cleansing of the leaven -- is performed during the evening meal, during which leavened bread is consumed, and a portion of the Haggadah is read. The crumbs of the leavened bread are then swept up, collected, and then cast out of the house, and the house declared "clean" of leaven. No leaven may be consumed after the fourth hour of the next day (still the 14th), and no leaven may even be in one's possession after the fifth hour of the next day (still the 14th).

The 14th is considered the "first day" of the feast of Passover, in that this ceremony is the first thing that must be performed as part of the feast of unleavened, and the next afternoon, still the 14th, is when the sacrifice of the Pesach lamb is offered in the Temple, and then as the sun sets, and the 15th begins, the Passover Seder is begun, and the lamb eaten, and the first official day of the seven days of eating unleavened bread begins.

But a Jew would never consider eating the Passover on the start of the 15th without first having performed the Bedikat Chametz on the start of the 14th -- the day of the preparation of the Passover -- the night before. One would have to have prepared a room before performing the bedikat chametz, so that this ceremony would be in a room already actually clean.

A Jew of Jesus' day did not just waltz into Jerusalem on the morning or afternoon of the 14th and sit down and eat the Passover that evening. The first thing done to begin Passover is done the night 'before' the Passover Seder itself, on the day of the preparation of the Passover, when the Bedikat Chametz is performed, and the leaven cast out during the evening meal.

For the one eating that meal and performing that ceremony, Passover has already begun. Passover has come. Passover is in progress. It is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the day of the preparation of the Passover, even though the lamb will not be eaten until the next evening during the Seder.

It is like putting your socks on before your shoes.

Jeffrey A

 

[ZiSunka]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

True, the eating of unleavened bread begins in advance of passover because they must kasher their homes, that is, get rid of all leaven, even the smallest crumbs before the passover is eaten. This involves cleaning everything, even the cracks in the floor to remove all traces of leaven. So if the house was already prepared for passover, which it would have been even the evening before, the meal would have been eaten with unleavened. Plus, unleavened bread is soft and pliable enough to pick up chunks of meat with (more like a soft tortilla than a slice of white bread), and the description of the meal clearly states that Jesus, Judas and John were all dipping meat out of the same bowl. So it is almost without doubt that the bread Christ used was unleavened. However, does that mean that the Lord's supper HAS to be unleavened, too?

 

[Jeffrey A]

Mar 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

This is the 14th, just as the sun is setting, the night before the lambs are to be killed the next afternoon. They are asking where to go to prepare a room (making sure it is really clean of leaven) so they may perform the ceremony of the bedikat chametz, the cleansing of leaven.

Mar 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

Mar 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mar 14:15 And he will shew you a large upper room furnished [and] prepared: there make ready for us.

Mar 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

So after the sun had set, but twilight was still giving light, and the 14th had already begun, these two disciples came into the city, found the man, and then made sure that the room was really actually clean, by going through it again in a search for leaven, so they could perform the 'ceremony' of bedikat chametz in that room.

[qoute] Mar 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. [/quote]

Now night is well under way, the night of the 14th, the first day of Passover, the day of preparation of the Passover, and it is time for the evening meal, and the ceremonial cleansing of the leaven that is part of that meal, the very first thing a Jew does as part of the feast of unleavened and Passover.

Passover has begun. Bedikat chametz is the very first ceremony of the Feast. A portion of the next night's Haggadah is read during this ceremonial meal. Leavened bread is served, so that the crumbs can be swept up, collected, and cast out, and the house declared "clean", so the Passover may be eaten in that same place the next evening.

I don't know much about the Passover, but this meal was the first day of unleavened bread when they killed the passover, and it was the evening. Isn't the evening the beginning of a day?

Yes. The 14th of Nisan is the first day of the feast of Passover, it comes just as the sun is setting, and the very first meal eaten that night is the first meal of Passover, and it is the meal of bedikat chametz, the cleansing of the leaven, and it must be performed so that the house may be declared cleansed of leaven, so that the Passover may be eaten the next evening, the 15th, the first day of the seven days of unleavened, the 15th through the 21st.

If one has not performed this ceremony on the first day of the feast, on the night of the 14th just as the day of preparation for the Passover has begun, one may not eat the Passover the next night, for the place in which they intend to eat the Passover will still be ceremonially unclean. But the Passover has begun when the 14th has come, as the sun has set on the 13th.


Jeffrey A

 

[ZiSunka]

It is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the day of the preparation of the Passover, even though the lamb will not be eaten until the next evening during the Seder.

No clearly the passage I posted says the passover comes the day before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. They are two separate holidays that happen to be right next to each other. The seder is eaten on passover, not during the days of unleavened bread. Unleavened bread starts the next day and is a sabbath.

 

[Gold Dragon]

However, does that mean that the Lord's supper HAS to be unleavened, too?

If you are asking for my opinion, I would say no. But using unleavened bread would be a good teaching moment to explain the connections between passover and Christ's sacrifice and the relationship between the OT and NT covenants.

 

[Jeffrey A]

While the Last Supper may or may not have been the seder Passover meal, I think it is pretty safe to say that they used unleavened bread for the meal since the whole process of "unleavening" the household took place in preparation for Pesach/Passover. This included getting rid of all leaven (chametz) in food, not owning leaven and scrubbing down the place to make sure there is no leaven. This is likely what was involved in the "preparation" of the upper room.

Yes, but there is a ceremony held the night before the Passover Seder in which leavened bread is consumed, so that the crumbs may be swept up, collected together, and cast out of the house, and THEN the house declared "clean of leaven." This is called the ceremony of "bedikat chametz", the 'cleansing of the leaven.'

So it is not so "pretty safe" to say Jesus and the disciples used unleavened bread for the meal the night before Passover, because eating leavened bread is 'part' of the very ceremony performed in declaring the house leaven free!

In fact, a Jew can keep right on eating leavened bread until the fourth hour of the next day!

Jeffrey A

 

[Gold Dragon]

Yes, but there is a ceremony held the night before the Passover Seder in which leavened bread is consumed, so that the crumbs may be swept up, collected together, and cast out of the house, and THEN the house declared "clean of leaven." This is called the ceremony of "bedikat chametz", the 'cleansing of the leaven.'

So it is not so "pretty safe" to say Jesus and the disciples used unleavened bread for the meal the night before Passover, because eating leavened bread is 'part' of the very ceremony performed in declaring the house leaven free!

In fact, a Jew can keep right on eating leavened bread until the fourth hour of the next day!

Jeffrey A

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Hmm,, apparently, Jesus was doing it right, and the Jews were doing it wrong. Passover is the day BEFORE the first day of Unleavened Bread, not the first day of Unleavened Bread:

4 "These are the Lord's appointed times, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times. 5 The Passover to the Lord comes in the first month, at twilight on the fourteenth day of the month. 6 The Festival of Unleavened Bread to the Lord is on the fifteenth day of the same month.

It seems they may have been combining passover and unleavened bread into a single holiday. Passover is a feast day, but Unleavened Bread is a sabbath, when no work should be done, like cooking and cleaning up.

It is incorrect to jump to the (rather wild) conclusion that "Jesus was (the only Jew) doing it right, and (all) the (other) Jews were doing it wrong."

No, the answer is found at Exodus 12:18 -- "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening [ereb], you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening [ereb]. Seven days there shall be no leaven found in your houses..." So just as the 14th was ending -- in the evening of the 14th -- until the ending of the 21st, no leaven was to be eaten. This would be seven full days, the 15th through the 21st, but the leaven must be gone, put away, before the end, the "evening" of the 14th.

"Evening" -- ereb -- comes at the end of each day, just as the sun is setting, while "night" -- layil -- is the very first thing that occurs on each day, as the light of the setting sun fades away: "It is a night [layil] to be observed for the LORD for having brought them out from the land of Egypt; this night is for the LORD, to be observed by all the sons of Israel throughout their generations. And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 'This is the ordinance of the Passover... For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread..." (Exodus 12:42;13:6).

They were to "keep (the pesach lamb) until the fourteenth day of the (first) month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight [ereb]... And they shall eat the flesh that same night [layil]... and they shall eat it with unleavened bread..." (Exodus 12:6,8).

It is a little clearer in Deuteronomy 16:2-4 -- "You shall sacrifice the Passover to the LORD your God from the flock and the herd ... You shall not eat leavened bread with it; seven days you shall eat with it unleavened bread... For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning."

So they kept a lamb or kid until the 14th, sacrificed it at evening, that is, as the day was beginning to end, and then roasted it, and ate it that night, after the sun had fully set and the light faded, and the 15th had begun, and they ate it with unleavened bread, for it was NOW the first full day of the seven days of unleavened bread, and they would continue to eat unleavened bread until the "evening" of the 21st, but they could not keep any of the meat of the Passover lamb over to the morning of the 15th, but had to eat it all, or burn it all up.

But they had to have all the leaven out of the house BEFORE the 15th began, which means they had to ceremonially cleanse the house the 14th. That they did the night before Passover, in a ceremony called the "bedikat chametz", the cleansing of the leaven. On the "night" of the 14th, just after the first day of Passover, the 14th, the day of the preparation of the Passover when the pesach lamb was sacrificed (that next afternoon in the "evening"), began.

As it has been since that first night in Egypt to this very day.

Jeffrey A

 

[ZiSunka]

It is incorrect to jump to the (rather wild) conclusion that "Jesus was (the only Jew) doing it right, and (all) the (other) Jews were doing it wrong."

So they kept a lamb or kid until the 14th, sacrificed it at evening, that is, as the day was beginning to end, and then roasted it, and ate it that night, after the sun had fully set and the light faded, and the 15th had begun, and they ate it with unleavened bread, for it was NOW the first full day of the seven days of unleavened bread, and they would continue to eat unleavened bread until the "evening" of the 21st, but they could not keep any of the meat of the Passover lamb over to the morning of the 15th, but had to eat it all, or burn it all up.

But they had to have all the leaven out of the house BEFORE the 15th began, which means they had to ceremonially cleanse the house the 14th. That they did the night before Passover, in a ceremony called the "bedikat chametz", the cleansing of the leaven. On the "night" of the 14th, just after the first day of Passover, the 14th, the day of the preparation of the Passover when the pesach lamb was sacrificed (that next afternoon in the "evening"), began.

As it has been since that first night in Egypt to this very day.

Jeffrey A

sigh.

Why on earth did you just preach a sermon at me? The passover and the feast of the unleavened bread are two different but consecutive holy days. Even by your reckoning, Jesus clearly ate his passover meal a whole day before the Jews who refused to go into Pilate's house so they wouldn't be defiled and unable to eat the passover meal. No matter whether you think it should be eaten on the 14th or the 15th, He clearly ate before they did.

I don't know what website you got your information from about kashering the house on the 14th so they could eat the seder on the 15th, but it is just plain wrong. I had many jewish friends growing up and have enjoyed many seders and the seder was always eaten on the 14th and they had a sabbath on the 15th, which, since they are to do NO work on the sabbath, not even cooking or cleaning up, could not be the day they cook and eat the passover seder. The cleaning of the house might take more than a week, because the entire house has to be scoured from top to bottom, not just swept up and dusted, but scrubbed so that no trace of leaven remains. It isn't something that you do the day before you kill the lamb. A lot of Christian websites regarding the passover have a lot of misinformation, and I suspect you might have gotten your info from one of those. The strictest jewish homes wash everything in the house, all the dishes, all the furniture, all the floors, all the drawers, all the carpets, all the walls, all the cupboards, the garage, the car, the basement, everything to make sure there is no leaven in the house for the holidays. Some of the liberal jewish families might just sweep up the crumbs the day before, but this is incorrect.

Now that you have harped on this one point that has nothing to do with the OP, I never said they wouldn't have eaten with unleavened bread. What day Christ ate his seder on is immaterial to the OP. The OP wanted to know if communion has to be eated with unleavened bread. He did not ask who knew more about seder or passover or whatever.

 

[Iollain]

Oh no, now i'm gonna have to actually research and study.

 

[Iollain]

One other thing to keep in mind is that an insistence in unleavened bread to mimic the seder meal in the upper room should honestly go hand-in-hand with an insistence on wine instead of grape juice.

I was looking at a Jewish site, and apparently you can substitute grape juice for wine. How long does it take for grape juice to turn into alchohol? Do they add anything to it?

 

[Iollain]

If anyone is interested, they are talking about this over in the MJ forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1268590-lords-supper-and-pesach.html

 

[SumTinWong]

Thanks that is pretty interesting.

 

[Iollain]

I found something about Kosher wine here:

http://www.abarbanel.com/history.shtml

 

[Iollain]

Bedikat Chametz must be where 'spring cleaning' came from.

 

[Jeffrey A]

Bedikat Chametz must be where 'spring cleaning' came from.