Unjustly?

[JJWhite]

I've been reading a book called 'Cracking the Communication Code' by Christian pastor Dr. Emerson Eggerichs.

On page 122 of his book, when explaining how Jesus modeled how to forgive, he said:

"Finally, all the sins of the world were placed unjustly on Him!"

I find the word 'unjustly' very problematic. Who comitted this injustice against Jesus, if it can be called that?

I'm Muslim, but I was just wondering, from a Christian perspective, was the author okay in using that term, and if you think so, can you explain it to me? As a Muslim, I believe God is All-Just, and I'm sure that Christians believe the same. I believe that God ALLOWS injustice to happen by the hands of others, but HE is All-Just. Do Christians believe that God was unjust against Himself in having His Son carry humanity's sin, or how does it work?

 

[drich0150]

It's hard to say without knowing what context he used this phrase or what he maybe trying to illustrate.

Just given the face value of your observation, my first reaction was to ask, Who are we to justly judge God? Then I referred back to scripture to see what Jesus had to say about the subject matter. He asked that "This cup be taken from me, but not my will but your will be done." He didn't say anything about this ultimate act of love being Unjust.

 

[seekthelord]

hi JJ,
People often state in their own words their own interpretation but one would expect an author to be precise and unequivocal but that's not always easy.
" All sins were placed unjustly on him tends to read that God unjustly placed all sins on him.
The author may have meant " unfairly" in the eyes of the author representing man because it is cleaqr elsewhere in the bible that God says that man cannot mock him( well we know that happens ) but God is meaning this in respect of " You will be paid back for the sins that you do.
So beware trying to read too much into the forgiveness of the cross as an outsider.
There are also many instances where God might seem unjust even though he is just and man's logic cannot compete except say " God is just whatever!"
So man may be forgiveable to see where God is just in certain circumstances.
Take one of the thiefs on the cross.
One minute he is mocking Jesus, the next minute he is rebuking his fellow thief on the cross saying, He's (Jesus) done nothing wrong.
Well how did he know that.
He was actually saying also that he does not deserve to die this death, in his view an unjust death because Barrabus should have been the one to die.
And if God had revealed even more to that changed good thief that thief might have thought Jesus death to be unjust based on all men should pay for their own sins.
Now you must know Muslims must declare Jesus death as an unjust death by an unjust God while problematically aceding to that same God, well Yahweh at least, being the Muslim God based historically on Abraham's offspring.
So beware lest any christian theologian is trying to woo you.
Here's the really good news.
Muslims can pay for their own sins and be happy about it.
Just do what Yahweh asks of you and the atoning effect of what was accomplished on the cross could be a Muslims.
Why wait or seek to pay a harder penalty that you will be proud of?
Oh, have I wandered a little?
seekthelord

 

[JJWhite]

This is the paragraph, though I don't think it offers much context to my question:

Jesus Is a Model of How to Forgive

Through the years I have read and listened to many excellent thinkiers discuss the question "How does one forgive? What is the process and how can you do it especially when you don't feel all that forgiving?" For me, the best of insights continue to reinforce what I have learned from the Person and teachings of Jesus. Jesus was wronged more than anyone. Finally, all the sins of the world were placed unjustly on Him! What did He, the Perfect One, demonstrate about how to forgive? Jesus' words and ways reveal the secret, which includes three steps:

Jesus sympathized with the offender.
He relinquished the offense to His heveanly Father.
He anticipated the Father's help.

-----------------

Anyway, as you can see, I don't think the context helps much?? I'm thinking he probably shouldn't have used the word 'unjustly' from a Christian perspective?

 

[JJWhite]

Now you must know Muslims must declare Jesus death as an unjust death by an unjust God while problematically aceding to that same God, well Yahweh at least, being the Muslim God based historically on Abraham's offspring.
So beware lest any christian theologian is trying to woo you.
Here's the really good news.
Muslims can pay for their own sins and be happy about it.
Just do what Yahweh asks of you and the atoning effect of what was accomplished on the cross could be a Muslims.
Why wait or seek to pay a harder penalty that you will be proud of?
Oh, have I wandered a little?
seekthelord

Hi, seekthelord!

I don't understand this part. Can you reword?

 

[Emmy]

Dear JJWhite. When Jesus lived on Earth, He showed us God, as God really is, a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again. The Bible tells us how men and women had moved too far away from God, they were selfish and unloving. There was nobody without sin or wrongdoing, who could pay the price which God`s Holy Law demanded. Jesus was the only man who was without sin, or any other guilt. Jesus came to Earth to save Mankind, Jesus knew what was waiting for Him, and Jesus loved us enough to give His Life to reconcile us to God. Jesus God-Son, part of the Holy Trinity, had to become human, as we are, to be able to pay for our sins and transgressions. His Death and suffering was not unjustly because God made Jesus do it, it was unjustly because Jesus who was without SIN, paid the Price for us, for Mankind. And it was done for pure Love. Jesus is our Saviour, without Jesus we would not have been able to return to God. Jesus is our Saviour and He is the WAY back to God. After God had raised Jesus He returned to God-Father, where He is pleading our prayers to God. Jesus is our Saviour, our Intercessor, and the Way back to God. Jesus did suffer unjustly but Jesus did it out of love for us, all Mankind. We now have to REPENT, to exchange our selfish and unloving character for loving God with our whole being, and loving each other as Jesus has shown us. I say this with love, JJWhite. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[aiki]

I think the author could have worded things better. I can't think of a verse off the top of my head that indicates that Christ's sacrifice on the cross for sinners was unjustly required of him. In fact, the Bible says this about Christ's attitude toward his death on the cross:

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (underline mine)

Rather than thinking of God's sacrifice of Jesus as unjust, it seems rather more to the point (and correct) to describe it as an act of loving mercy and grace, which the Bible does many times.

If God had forced the cross upon Christ, it might then be seen as unjust. But Christ went willingly to his death so that we might obtain reconciliation and acceptance with God.

Selah.

 

[ebia]

I'm Muslim, but I was just wondering, from a Christian perspective, was the author okay in using that term,

I wouldn't choose to put things that way, no.

 

[Adoniram]

When one considers that Jesus was sinless, the innocent Lamb, and it was our sins, not his, that he died for, the term "unjust" might be applicable. He did nothing deserving of death, nevertheless, that is what was planned from before the world was created, so...justice was served.

Is. 53
9 ...Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.

 

[Sketcher]

This is the paragraph, though I don't think it offers much context to my question:

Jesus Is a Model of How to Forgive

Through the years I have read and listened to many excellent thinkiers discuss the question "How does one forgive? What is the process and how can you do it especially when you don't feel all that forgiving?" For me, the best of insights continue to reinforce what I have learned from the Person and teachings of Jesus. Jesus was wronged more than anyone. Finally, all the sins of the world were placed unjustly on Him! What did He, the Perfect One, demonstrate about how to forgive? Jesus' words and ways reveal the secret, which includes three steps:

Jesus sympathized with the offender.
He relinquished the offense to His heveanly Father.
He anticipated the Father's help.

-----------------

Anyway, as you can see, I don't think the context helps much?? I'm thinking he probably shouldn't have used the word 'unjustly' from a Christian perspective?

I've heard this man preach, and when he makes a point like that, you can't take a paragraph like this in isolation. What's he talking about? The necessity of forgiveness and the example of Christ in forgiving. What is the most radical example of Christ forgiving? "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." When he's on the cross, these people are crucifying him, mocking him, and gambling for his underwear. And he didn't do anything to deserve to be on that cross! Dr. Eggerichs's ministry is marriage. I'm pretty sure what he's getting at is if Jesus can forgive like that in a situation like that, you can forgive your spouse when you're having a bad day. You might be having problems with the kids and/or work, and your spouse might have said something bad to you. But your boss, your co-workers, and especially your spouse is not crucifying you. When you put it in perspective, according to what he's teaching here, it's something that you can do by the end of the day.

Now, it is true that Jesus was sinless. He didn't deserve any punishment, but he voluntarily took the punishment of sinners on the cross. He laid down his own life for this purpose, only to take it up again. Is this a stain on the character of God? Not at all. For while there are three Persons of God, there is still only one God. It shows the honor and mercy of God in doing for us what we could never do for ourselves. It shows God himself in the ultimate act of heroism and self-sacrifice.

 

[JJWhite]

I've heard this man preach, and when he makes a point like that, you can't take a paragraph like this in isolation. What's he talking about? The necessity of forgiveness and the example of Christ in forgiving. What is the most radical example of Christ forgiving? "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." When he's on the cross, these people are crucifying him, mocking him, and gambling for his underwear. And he didn't do anything to deserve to be on that cross! Dr. Eggerichs's ministry is marriage. I'm pretty sure what he's getting at is if Jesus can forgive like that in a situation like that, you can forgive your spouse when you're having a bad day. You might be having problems with the kids and/or work, and your spouse might have said something bad to you. But your boss, your co-workers, and especially your spouse is not crucifying you. When you put it in perspective, according to what he's teaching here, it's something that you can do by the end of the day.

Now, it is true that Jesus was sinless. He didn't deserve any punishment, but he voluntarily took the punishment of sinners on the cross. He laid down his own life for this purpose, only to take it up again. Is this a stain on the character of God? Not at all. For while there are three Persons of God, there is still only one God. It shows the honor and mercy of God in doing for us what we could never do for ourselves. It shows God himself in the ultimate act of heroism and self-sacrifice.

I wasn't objecting to the message Dr. Eggerich was preaching there... I'm for the ideas of sacrifice and forgiveness and following the example of the righteous.... it's just when I was reading and came accross that word, it didn't seem quite right, even from a Christian perspective, so I wanted other Christians to clarify whether I was thinking right or not.

We all word things in ways and then go back and edit our work feeling that we could have put something better or that something wasn't 100% correct technically. Nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes. I'm not trying to put down the author in any way... I was just questioning the use of the term.

 

[seekthelord]

Hi, seekthelord!

I don't understand this part. Can you reword?

As you can see above JJ, I have not got the hang of quoting or multiquoting which might make my siple explanation just as confusing.

< Originally Posted by seekthelord

Now you must know Muslims must declare Jesus death as an unjust death by an unjust God while problematically aceding to that same God, well Yahweh at least, being the Muslim God based historically on Abraham's offspring. >

Muslims will declare that they alone must pay for their own sins.
That in my twisted logic means that they declare the God of the christians an unjust God for spoiling their duty by getting his Son to do the dirty work and effectively nullifying the Muslim doctrine in this area. Unless of course they deny the God of christians, the God of Abraham to be the true God.

So Muslims would also declare that Jesus death is an unjust death because Muslims should have the right to pay the penalty for their own sins.

Now the next is the very controversial part, more so with in Christianity than with Muslims.
< Here's the really good news.
Muslims can pay for their own sins and be happy about it. >

Shock and horror will be felt by many christians on hearing these words come out of a christian's mouth.
For all christians are taught that Jesus died for the whole world and paid the penalty of sin for the whole world.
So no-one can do anything to pay for their sins anymore.

That last bit is man's logic and would probably be any Muslims as well when they refuse to believe in Christianity.
But, hey, many people are and will be destined for Hell.
So what's this all about, all sins paid for?
Surely I and you can carry on sinning knowing all sins are paid for by Yeshua.
Logic can be proved to be a load of rubbish when one has a clear head.
But this is an ever lasting arguement within Christian circles.
I won't go into it here but just imprint on you the truth of the gospel leaving others to tell you another story.
Here is the good news for Muslims.
They can pay for their sins.
Yeshua has paid the penalty for all sins on the cross but as far as anyone is concerned they must enter into a covenant or what Yeshua has done for that person is of no use whatsoever although it does not in any way diminish the stature and accomplishment of the Messiah of Yahweh.
What must they do physically.
Praise Yahweh that He has made life (eternal life) so easy to attain.
All any man need do is to wash away his sins.
Any man can somehow wash himself but this washing is done with a believing heart toward Yeshua that Yeshua has made such a relationship man can have with God so simple .

< Why wait or seek to pay a harder penalty that you will be proud of? >

The stumbling block for Muslims to see or perhaps the best defence ( I use defence as a mark of respect rather than attack ) a muslim seems to have about a reluctance to believe deeper in Yeshua being more than a prophet is that he/she cannot accept another paying for that muslim's sins.

See how easy Yahweh has now made it for any man!

< So beware lest any christian theologian is trying to woo you. >

I am not a christian theologian but I tell you this.
Beware that any christian is trying to woo yoo!

For I am,

seekthelord



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