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That old!
I'm a young chick born in 1946.
So, maybe we could discuss tomorrow,,,
I don't like to argue and debate (although I guess it is kind of a debate).
@The Righterzpen
I'm closing down.
If you'd like, pick one of your topics in that long post...
If not...friends like before.
Romans 8:16Wait I thought I was saved by God’s election? That’s what predestination means. So how could I possibly “make my own calling and election sure”?
Now post everything after "Nevertheless..." Paul makes it painfully obvious in the following verses. Because even though there were those between Adam and Moses they still suffered the consequences of sin....death.Sin is not imputed to us until there is law. That's so interesting in this context of this discussion really isn't it?
We agree on that.Now post everything after "Nevertheless..." Paul makes it painfully obvious in the following verses. Because even though there were those between Adam and Moses they still suffered the consequences of sin....death.
What I pointed out is the sin of the one is imputed to all mankind regardless of Law.We agree on that.See post #61. The one you responded to.
How do you undo verse 13 then?What I pointed out is the sin of the one is imputed to all mankind regardless of Law.
I don’t. I keep going to verse 14 and the remainder of the chapter.How do you undo verse 13 then?
So we agree on all that ( and yes I read Romans fully and carefully and again recently). We only differ here on your use of the word "imputed" being differing from Paul's use in v 13 . I'll stick with Paul on that.. I think the "pulpit commentary" at biblehub is good on this, and clear.I don’t. I keep going to verse 14 and the remainder of the chapter.
I mentioned this in another post:
Let's see what Paul actually said:
Romans 5: NASB
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
By Adam's sin death spread to all men. And death nevertheless reigned from Adam until Moses without the Law. Pretty clear we all suffer the consequences of the one sin of Adam. Notice Paul even says "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Yet all men suffer the consequences of that sin of Adam. That's why most theologians call it 'original sin.' The origin for the penalty of this sin is death and we all die.
Continuing with Romans chapter 5:
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Pretty clear here as Paul builds a parallel between what condemns us "the transgression of the one" and what saves us the gift by grace through Jesus Christ.
More from Chapter 5 as Paul concludes his points in no uncertain terms:
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Pretty clear we all suffer the consequences of the one sin of Adam.
Note the language:So we agree on all that ( and yes I read Romans fully and carefully and again recently). We only differ here on your use of the word "imputed" being differing from Paul's use in v 13 . I'll stick with Paul on that.. I think the "pulpit commentary" at biblehub is good on this, and clear.
Romans 5:13 For sin was in the world before the Law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
New American Standard Bible
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
You are still restating what we agree on. That's fine.Note the language:
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Paul is not saying there was no law between Adam and Moses. In Eden the Law was established to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (ToKoG&E). Without law there cannot be transgression. For your point of view to be valid Paul would have to explain why people born between Adam and Moses were either sinless or not accountable to any law. But he does the exact opposite.
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgressionresulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You might be affirming a form of original sin or “sin nature” we all inherit. But seem to have issue with the condemnation of Adam’s sin as ours as well. Either that or you just don’t like the word “impute.” Which actually explains Romans 5:12-21You are still restating what we agree on. That's fine.just stop imagining a view I don't have and admit we agree on that. Try reading my posts before responding.
What someone claims and what God knows of their heart are two different matters.
Not all who say unto me Lord, Lord did we not ...... And I will say: Be gone from me you workers of iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU!
Matthew 7:22-24
Yes, and this fact does not deny the state of men's hearts that they will not repent if it were not for God's awakening them to that need.
For it's the goodness of God that leads one to repentance. Romans 2:4
Are you convicted of your sin? Do you understand that you deserve God's wrath? Have you ever been afraid of God's wrath; out of the sheer conviction that you are worthy of it?
To make one's calling and election sure (note it does say to make your "election" sure - which means to know whether or not you are indeed elect) I.E. are you obedient?
One who is awakened and seeks to walk in obedience will say to God - I don't understand election. Please help my understanding. They are not of the predisposition to argue with God over it.
Unjustified Imputed Guilt
Many hold to a version of imputed guilt whereby God reckons people guilty of crimes they haven't actually committed. That itself would seem to be a definition of injustice. In fact some such people I have spoken to will end up saying in defense, "God is not just in human terms." To which I respond that they can drop the phrase "in human terms" seeing as the Bible was written to humans. If they are preaching to humans, they should just come out and admit that according to their theology God is unjust.
As for cases in point take for example the theory of Unconditional Election in which people are fated to eternal damnation prior to them even being born, and thus prior to them committing sin. Reasonable people recognize that as being inherently unjust.
Many Christians reckon people born guilty of Adam's sin. Adam's sin was Adam's sin, not the sin of others who had not even been born. Likewise many think the God pretended that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world, crimes that he didn't actually commit, and that God consequently pour wrath on him, knowing that he was innocent.
What do these say of the character of the god that such people believe in? In contrast to such a god, the God of scripture is just. (Rom 3:26, 2Thess 1:6) Many fail to interpret scripture in light of God's character and end up believing in a different god.
Romans 8:16
Could you clarify please.What I pointed out is the sin of the one is imputed to all mankind regardless of Law.
Yes, Jesus will say I NEVER KNEW YOU...What someone claims and what God knows of their heart are two different matters.
Not all who say unto me Lord, Lord did we not ...... And I will say: Be gone from me you workers of iniquity, for I NEVER KNEW YOU!
Matthew 7:22-24
Yes, Jesus will say I NEVER KNEW YOU...
But He also tells us why in the next breath:
Mathew 7:23b
"YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."
We are required to obey the Law..the Moral Law and any other commandments specifically stated by Jesus.
Those who do not obey the Law...are LAWLESS...they are without the law and will not enter into heaven.
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