Universalism

[LightSeaker]

I don't think this is true in the least. It might be your opinion, but I doubt it is a well-researched opinion.

If you can give any examples where it's not true...I'm all ears. Because exploring the depths of lactually oving God with one's Heart and Soul is what the mystics are all about. Most of us aren't.

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[LightSeaker]

... We have set it up as the difinative text of Christianity.

Which is what is should be...but in practice, it's been way under valued in the Church.

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[timlamb]

SS made this comment:

Originally Posted by Soul Searcher

Read the semon on the mount, Jesus goes through a list of things we are to do and then that we are to be like the father [or at least give it our best effort] If God returns evil for evil would he ask us to do otherwise to be like him?
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And I answered Here:
I guess that would depend on whether you call God's wrath evil or not! I think God would prefer the word Justice.
Luke 21:22
because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, " THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

And LS responded with this:

It’s so interesting to me in what one takes from Biblical verse. Where tim sees lessons on Vengeance...I see lessons on Love and of the power of Love and of the spiritual position we should take with other human beings.

Either LS didn't realy follow the posts, or didn't understand, or didn't want to understand, or just wanted to wate my time. Take your pick!

The verse covers what I said and makes the point; God tells us to not to do what He reserves for Himself, vengeance and wrath. We are to mimic Christ, not to be God.

 

[timlamb]

The sermon on the mount is the most moving part of the bible for me by a long shot. There is much that can be learned from that sermon.

Tim; Remember the context of the sermon, Jesus was saying that we should not take an eye for an eye even though that is what had been taught it is wrong, that is returning an evil for an evil. This and all the other stuff is what he is talking about when he says be like the father who is perfect.

One major problem with many theologies especially the ones which teach eternal torment is that they hold man to a higher standard than God. If man exacts revenge it is evil if God does so it is glorious that is unless you happen to be the victim. I wonder how fast the opinion would change if those who preach this doctorine found that they were on the receiving end of this so called justice. Would it still be just or would it suddenly become evil?

God has the power to save anyone and everyone at any time he chooses, we are powerless to save anything at all. It is not us who will decide it is he who knows all and loves all and we can trust that he will do the right thing. Torturing people for eternity is clearly not the right thing and anyone who thinks such a thing is just surely has no idea what it means to be just.

Ignoring your eternal torment comments for a moment, I think you are way out of line to say those do not believe in universal salvation are not emencely grateful for their salvation and wish to bring all to salvation. We fear God as we work out our slavation, we know and understand just what we are saved from. We, (and I say we for the majority) do not desire for others to be punished nor would we inflict it our selves nor do we feel we have the right to call down wrath or be above God.

You insinuated some very insulting and degrading things and I'm not even sure how to respond or if your comment is even worth responding to.

Those who are His sheep WILL be called to the flock and even sought out, but those who reject will be left outside. We believe it because Christ said it, not because WE wish people to suffer. But I love my God and scripture teaches those who oppose Him are His enemy and if they remain opposed to Him the do not deserve to be in the flock.

However My Loving God choses to deal with the rebels of His creation, I will praise Him for it. because He is good and Just.

To suggest that I am bad in some way I can deal with. But to lump people who disagree with you together and say we wish all to burn is really not living by the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount was just one of the great discourses of Jesus in scripture. They each have great value depending on your life needs. I do think SS needs to read it again, He seems to forgot the part about "do not Judge".

 

[LightSeaker]

The verse covers what I said and makes the point; God tells us to not to do what He reserves for Himself, vengeance and wrath. We are to mimic Christ, not to be God.

The whole of the scripture I quoted tells us how to mimic Christ..ie..through Love. The part you focus upon removes all of the most important stuff that Paul was talking about.

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[A New Dawn]

If you can give any examples where it's not true...I'm all ears. Because exploring the depths of lactually oving God with one's Heart and Soul is what the mystics are all about. Most of us aren't.

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What, exactly, do you mean by a "mystic"? I love God with all my heart and soul, I find His love for me written in His love letter to me. I see His love all around me when His grace is in action. I first experienced His love when I was at the lowest point in my life and He reached down and told me I wasn't alone, and I have experienced it every day since. I'm not sure what you mean by 'mystic', but I don't buy into your theory that only mystics can really understand God's love.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Ignoring your eternal torment comments for a moment, I think you are way out of line to say those do not believe in universal salvation are not emencely grateful for their salvation and wish to bring all to salvation. We fear God as we work out our slavation, we know and understand just what we are saved from. We, (and I say we for the majority) do not desire for others to be punished nor would we inflict it our selves nor do we feel we have the right to call down wrath or be above God.

You insinuated some very insulting and degrading things and I'm not even sure how to respond or if your comment is even worth responding to.

Let me just say that I have saw plenty of posts over the last few years where it has been expressed that if all are saved that they [they being the so-called christain] would sin as they please. They express no understanding of doing what is right because it is right or beleving in the truth but rather doing what they have been told they need to do to gain a reward while being assured this reward only comes to a special few where others shall face the worst possible fate. Many will even go so far as to say anyone who gets tortured for eternity will totally deserve it even though we all know this is false.

 

[timlamb]

The whole of the scripture I quoted tells us how to mimic Christ..ie..through Love. The part you focus upon removes all of the most important stuff that Paul was talking about.

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Tell me you didn't read the statement by SS I was responding to because you are getting far from the reaon I quoted the verse. The verse has a great message of love especially in conjunction with the surrounding verses. But it makes a statement about the wrath of God that covered the point I was trying to make and you want to paint me dark because of it like I go stalking the scriptures for wrath and punishment. Drop it will you. I would use that verse to prove the message of God's love just as quickly had that been the conversation.

 

[A New Dawn]

Let me just say that I have saw plenty of posts over the last few years where it has been expressed that if all are saved that they [they being the so-called christain] would sin as they please. They express no understanding of doing what is right because it is right or beleving in the truth but rather doing what they have been told they need to do to gain a reward while being assured this reward only comes to a special few where others shall face the worst possible fate. Many will even go so far as to say anyone who gets tortured for eternity will totally deserve it even though we all know this is false.

Can you link us to one of these posts by so-called Christians that have advocated what you have stated? I realize that we post in differing threads, and likely different parts of the board, but I have debated here in many different forums over the last 5+ years, and I have never seen anyone say anything remotely close to that. A statement like that needs to be verified.

Thanks.

 

[timlamb]

Let me just say that I have saw plenty of posts over the last few years where it has been expressed that if all are saved that they [they being the so-called christain] would sin as they please. They express no understanding of doing what is right because it is right or beleving in the truth but rather doing what they have been told they need to do to gain a reward while being assured this reward only comes to a special few where others shall face the worst possible fate. Many will even go so far as to say anyone who gets tortured for eternity will totally deserve it even though we all know this is false.

Get this straight, believing in an eternal Lake of Fire does not make us evil. We believe it because we believe that is what the Word of God says and we desire to warn people of that and encourage belief for salvation. I'll admit I have been guilty of saying that all would sin more without the treat of eteranl LOF. That goes back to the time of conversion. What convinces us God hates sin is the punishment of it. but you are right in that as a maturing Christian I want to please God with my actions out of Love and appreciation and just because He is God: and as you say, just because it is right.

But your last sentence, that is as judgmental a statement as I have ever heard. You cannot judge us by what you believe. Whether you understand it, we believe that those who reject God are His enemy and, at death, will remain His enemy for eternity, and from that perspective we believe it is good that they are seperated from righteousness for all eternity. You act like we should know it to be false because YOU believe it to be false.

 

[timlamb]

I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 is the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

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Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

 

[Tavita]

I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 is the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

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Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

This has something to do with eternal torment or universalism?

I was always taught in the Orthodox churches I have been a member of that this foreshadows the entering into the Kingdom when one becomes a christian.

Is it the perish bit you are trying to point out? I don't see that it means eternal, never ending, endless torment.

'âbad
aw-bad'
A primitive root; properly to wander away, that is lose oneself; by implication to perish (causatively, destroy): - break, destroy (-uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Can you link us to one of these posts by so-called Christians that have advocated what you have stated? I realize that we post in differing threads, and likely different parts of the board, but I have debated here in many different forums over the last 5+ years, and I have never seen anyone say anything remotely close to that. A statement like that needs to be verified.

Thanks.

I think it might take a bit of time to look one up but they are definitely here and quite a few of them also. In fact in this very thread I saw such a post as a skimmed over the posts. I have no idea what post it was nor what page but it is here and you will find at least one in pretty much any thread on UR that goes on for very long. Of course since they are posted by different people the words will vary but the core idea stays the same that being if there is no eternal hell then there is no reason to avoid what we call sin. It is used often to try and discredit the UR belief but really it only shows that the poster does not understand what we believe.

ETA: Read the post directly under yours, while it does not say exactly what I mentioned it goes lean a little in that direction.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Get this straight, believing in an eternal Lake of Fire does not make us evil.

I did not say you were evil.

We believe it because we believe that is what the Word of God says and we desire to warn people of that and encourage belief for salvation.

So you believe John literally saw this forever? How then do we have it written down to read. Would he not still be watching if what you seem to believe is true? Take away the word eternal and you will be closer to the truth.

I'll admit I have been guilty of saying that all would sin more without the treat of eteranl LOF.

But this is not really true as many of us do not believe in that threat, The only ones who would sin more are those who try not to sin out of fear of eternal punishment.

That goes back to the time of conversion. What convinces us God hates sin is the punishment of it. but you are right in that as a maturing Christian I want to please God with my actions out of Love and appreciation and just because He is God: and as you say, just because it is right.

So if there was no threat of eternal punishment nothing would change?

But your last sentence, that is as judgmental a statement as I have ever heard.

I think it is more a statement of fact than a judgment. We know it is wrong to torture any living thing. To do so eternally would be beyond comprehension.

You cannot judge us by what you believe. Whether you understand it, we believe that those who reject God are His enemy and, at death, will remain His enemy for eternity, and from that perspective we believe it is good that they are seperated from righteousness for all eternity. You act like we should know it to be false because YOU believe it to be false.

Yes you should know it to be false because you would condemn any man who tortured someone. When a person is brutally killed one of the first things people will normally say is that person did not deserve that but the concept of eternal hell is trillions of times worse.

As I said before Jesus wants us to be like God, To love one another, to love our enemies as ourselves, to forgive, to show mercy and so on.

 

[Rajni]

54 pages. Just out of curiosity - has anyone changed their mind over anything yet?

Not sure -- one would have to also take into consideration those who read the posts without actually chiming in. People are being impacted one way or the other that we may never know about this side of Heaven.


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[gort]

Can you link us to one of these posts by so-called Christians that have advocated what you have stated? I realize that we post in differing threads, and likely different parts of the board, but I have debated here in many different forums over the last 5+ years, and I have never seen anyone say anything remotely close to that. A statement like that needs to be verified.

Thanks.

I'm quite sure that I'm one who has advocated that if universal salvation were possible people might have the attitude to sin now and pay later. It is entirely feasible considering that many unsaved people can say even with eternal torment, I'm not ready yet to do things Gods way. However, christians would not be able to sin now and pay later. It's not possible for that.

I've never heard "torture" used to describe eternal wrath though by non-universalists.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm quite sure that I'm one who has advocated that if universal salvation were possible people might have the attitude to sin now and pay later. It is entirely feasible considering that many unsaved people can say even with eternal torment, I'm not ready yet to do things Gods way. However, christians would not be able to sin now and pay later. It's not possible for that.

I've never heard "torture" used to describe eternal wrath though by non-universalists.

I agree that, in general, those who are not really saved might have that type of attitude, which, IMO, demonstrates man's inability to choose, but I don't believe that anyone who has actually been guided by God, who's heart has been regenerated, would make comments like that.

 

[archierieus]

I've never heard "torture" used to describe eternal wrath though by non-universalists.

I am not a universalist, but I can understand the use of the term. There is a time for capital punishment, and God carries it out. But there is a difference between punisment, even capital punishment, and torture. The teaching that God torments people throughout eternity has caused many people to become atheists. And that is especially sad because it is not Scriptural. The Bible teaches that God destroys the wicked by fire after the final judgment, Rev. 20.

Dave

 

[HighwayMan]

Not sure -- one would have to also take into consideration those who read the posts without actually chiming in. People are being impacted one way or the other that we may never know about this side of Heaven.


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Possibly, though I mean the people who are taking part in the discussion.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I've never heard "torture" used to describe eternal wrath though by non-universalists.

I believe this may be true however it is missleading to a degree. The word used is torment but that word has been watered down over the years and does not carry the full weight of torture. The reality is that words as used carry the same meaning with torment possibly being even worse than torture but seldom understood as such. I simply use the word torture because now-a-days that seems to drive the point home better.

Websters:
Torment
TOR'MENT, n. [L. tormentum.; torqueo, torno; Eng. tour; that is, from twisting, straining.]
1. Extreme pain; anguish; the utmost degree of misery, either of body or mind.

Torture
Torture
TORT'URE, n. [L. tortus, torqueo, to twist.]
1. Extreme pain; anguish of body or mind; pang; agony; torment.

There is however another meaning for the word torment as used int he bible and that is..

basanismos
Thayer Definition:
1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

And then we see written in the works of Paul.

1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The torment is the test and the end result is salvation not eternal on going agony.