Universalism

[LightSeaker]

But that's just it, eternal wrath does exist.

If it does...than Infinate Love doesn't exist.

.

 

[timlamb]

If it does...than Infinate Love doesn't exist.

.

(sigh) the wisdom of man...

 

[heavensprings]

What is it about "Holyness" that sets a person or God apart? Your not saying.

.

I find it amusing when people try to point out that holiness has something to do with being sinless.

Exo 3:5 Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." - sinless ground?

Exo 28:2 "You shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. - sinless garments?

Exo 29:6 and you shall set the turban on his head and put the holy crown on the turban. - sinless crowns?

You get my drift.

Holiness, or being set apart, should lead to living a life free of sin. Yet if we say we have no sin, we are liars.

Holy
qôdesh
ko'-desh
From H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstractly sanctity: - consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

 

[heavensprings]

You guys leave out any verse that doesn't have love and forgivness in it and accuse us of making God small. You short change His character when you leave out that He is a just God.

I think this statement is very unfair, Tim.

Most UR's DO believe in judgment, and punishment, and this... Behold then the goodness and severity of God. In fact, most know by personal experience how hard God can be and how far into 'outer darkness' He will allow a person to go.

It's all about TOUGH LOVE, Tim. But love nevertheless, because He IS love.

 

[heavensprings]

So you are saying if I don't follow Jesus and get saved then I will just die and be done with it when I die? Sweet! That beats going to hell. That means I can do whatever I want and sin my butt off and the only thing will happen when I die is .... nothing.

No. But now we're getting somewhere.

This is why the doctrine of eternal torment makes no sense.

If the soul is not immortal until it's given to us by God when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then how can anyone live in an endless (everlasting) state in death.. eternal torment? The thought then leads us to think, either they're annihilated, OR, ALL will be brought to salvation (which is what UR's believe). There can be no state of immortality in death. btw... death will finally be abolished too. So, where are these people "living in death"? It's so unscriptural it's not funny at all.

ALL, will be raised/resurrected out of the state of death (hell.. simply a place of the dead) at either the first or second resurrection, for judgment...

Then why even be saved? Who cares about immortality? I just don't want eternal torment. If I can get away with just being done then that doesn't sound bad at all.

Why be saved? Who cares about immortality? Where is your relationship with the Father?

It's about being reconciled and having a RELATIONSHIP with the Father and the Son... isn't it? Isn't the point of being a christian to have a love relationship with the Lord? And if you have a relationship with Him... you'll want to please Him... and be filled with and walk in the Spirit... which then leads to us sinning less and less?

It's not about accepting Christ to get a free ticket out of eternal torment.

 

[heavensprings]

So God's ultimate punishment is only death? Bwhahahaha! I would think that he could do better than that. Even man has the death penalty. Death is easy. Life is hard.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You don't believe the scripture? You laugh at it? (wouldn't like to be in your shoes!)

Didn't Jesus die so we wouldn't die... spiritually?

And the wages... is death.

It's about both physical death, and spiritual death.

It's about living... while in a state of spiritual death. Now, that's the HARD part!

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

If the wages of sin is eternal torment, then please show me from Genesis, (where sin originated).. where it states this.

 

[heavensprings]

UR's think that ALL will be brought to salvation? Even horrible mass murderers and rapists? Wow. That's an amazing God who would allow them into Heaven.

If you try to follow God's commandments then I'm sure you would be studying them, right? Doesn't the Bible say that if you break one small point of the Law, you break the lot? And didn't Paul say he was the chiefest of sinners.. and he still got saved? Murder, rape, theft.. it's all breaking the law.

If everyone will be brought to salvation then why preach the good news at all? Just to make people all giddy and jolly?

Because from God's perspective, he wants us in relationship NOW. And also because if you come to Him in this life, you will receive greater rewards, and I mean GREATER, than if you don't... read the first chapters of Revelation. And Jesus said that it was more blessed to believe by faith than to see with your eyes. It's also got to do with being priests and kings.. we get to rule and reign with Christ in the ages to come. (over whom do we rule and reign I wonder?)

The only reason I follow God's commandments and try my best to believe in his son Jesus is to get out of hell. If it were not for that then I probably wouldn't bother with it at all.

That's too sad.

 

[heavensprings]

Here JESUS said this:

Luke 16:19-28 (English-NIV)
19 There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25 But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
27 He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

Yes, the parable of Abraham's Bosom.

All about God taking the rule of the Kingdom from Judah and giving it to the Gentiles... Lazarus.

Here's a fantastic article about it...

Abraham's Bosom:The Parable;The Rich Man; Lazarus;The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus;Abraham's Bosom; Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom; The Rich Man In Torment; The Great Gulf

 

[red77]

Yes, the parable of Abraham's Bosom.

All about God taking the rule of the Kingdom from Judah and giving it to the Gentiles... Lazarus.


Look, Jesus said the Bible is so simple that a Child can understant it. It doesn't take a genious to understand that the rich man was in HELL and Lazarus was in heaven and he was begging him for a drop of water because hell is hot. He also didn't want his brothers to come to hell because it sucked.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that a man who was literally on fire wouldn't even be able to speak let alone so eloquently ask for a drop of water for his tongue. What difference would a single drop of water make?! You've already stated that without hell you wouldn't even see the point of being a believer yourself to be spared from it. Sad.

 

[preistsplace]

So God's ultimate punishment is only death? Bwhahahaha! I would think that he could do better than that. Even man has the death penalty. Death is easy. Life is hard.

hmm well I think he is more concerned about being Just then the "best punisher".

 

[preistsplace]

Here JESUS said this:

Luke 16:19-28 (English-NIV)
19 There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.
25 But Abraham replied, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.
27 He answered, `Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

he also said this...
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
why say that if it could not be paid ie eternal punishment???

 

[gort]

You say it's easier for me.. It wasnt an easy conclusion to come to, because I like everyone else was taught Hell was eternal. It's something I wrestled with for months, just like other people who've walked down this road. However you have to look at the translation of the word in question and which would be the greek word Aion and go through it and study it out.

First, let's get some wording straightened out. Hell is not eternal in the sense that Hell does what Hell has been doing for millenia. Hell gets tossed in the lake of fire, along with Death, along with the false prophet, satan and those not found in the Lambs book of Life. Hell has been emptied out and no longer holds a power.

As you want to look at the translation of the word Aion and presume to think that it really does'nt have an eternal quantitiveness to it, one needs to remember that Aion and some of its derivitatives also ascribe the eternal quantitativeness of God.

Let me ask you all these questions...
Why is it so threatening to you to tell people about Universal Reconciliation ? I want to hear the heart of those opposing it's what the core issue is.

Universalism is not threatening to me. It's simply not a biblical fact. To the universalist, the primary reasoning is that there is an eventual release from the lake of fire. There is no indication that this is so. The lake of fire is the final consumation where evil in all forms is put away for ever. There simply is not an exit door found in the scriptures.

I would also ask to those violently opposing it have you actually looked into it for youself and formed your own conclusions?

Of course I have, and not finding such in the scriptures, I cannot preach universal reconciliation any more than I could preach we are saved by works.

How do you know that your so right and we're so wrong, and how do you know it ?

From the scriptures.

What happens if say you're right and we're wrong, when (as I've said before) none of us here will get to make those decisions anyways, does it even matter ?

It's not that I'm right and you're wrong per se. It's about what God said, so it does matter as it goes to the charachter of God. God did'nt say we are saved by our works, He said we are saved by Grace thru faith in Christ Jesus. We don't get to make the decisions in such matters but what we need to do is make a decision to believe what God said. And some of the most important things God said is:

1. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him has eternal life.

2. God is willing that no one perishes
3. God desires all to come to repentence.

God is far more ahead of you or I and all the rest of the world in the desiring of all to come to repentence department.

 

[timlamb]

I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 if the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

​

Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

 

[preistsplace]

UR's think that ALL will be brought to salvation? Even horrible mass murderers and rapists? Wow. That's an amazing God who would allow them into Heaven.

just because they will eventually be brought in
doesn't mean that they wont pay the uttermost farthing for their crimes

If everyone will be brought to salvation then why preach the good news at all? Just to make people all giddy and jolly?

if you were walking with your friend and saw a large hole where he could fall and injure himself would you tell him even though the injury would not kill him?

The only reason I follow God's commandments and try my best to believe in his son Jesus is to get out of hell. If it were not for that then I probably wouldn't bother with it at all.

you realize that the first commandment is to love God with all of your heart and soul?

 

[preistsplace]

I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 if the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

​

Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

and which curse Mr. Lamb, under the Mosaic law condemned the sinner to eternal damnation?
What you are quotinmg here is a passage referring to the blessings and curses for Israel concerning the Law, which as we are later informed in the New Testament no one is capable of keeping.

 

[preistsplace]

Well, crap! I guess I'm screwed and going to hell.

well I don't belve that you are and even if you do God will execute righteous judgment and you would not be there forever.
The eternal Hell thing keeps many people from truly experiencing God's Love because they cannot see past the apparent dilema. God loves you intensely he sent His only Begotten Son to pay for your sins by dying on the Cross. He wants you to know him. I will pray that He reveals himself to you as he has to me.

 

[preistsplace]

First, let's get some wording straightened out. Hell is not eternal in the sense that Hell does what Hell has been doing for millenia. Hell gets tossed in the lake of fire, along with Death, along with the false prophet, satan and those not found in the Lambs book of Life. Hell has been emptied out and no longer holds a power.

As you want to look at the translation of the word Aion and presume to think that it really does'nt have an eternal quantitiveness to it, one needs to remember that Aion and some of its derivitatives also ascribe the eternal quantitativeness of God.

Are a tall building and a tall man the same size?

 

[timlamb]

and which curse Mr. Lamb, under the Mosaic law condemned the sinner to eternal damnation?
What you are quotinmg here is a passage referring to the blessings and curses for Israel concerning the Law, which as we are later informed in the New Testament no one is capable of keeping.

I don't think you read it or you wouldn't have said such a foolish thing. This is not the law of Moses, read it:
11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
It is the same commandment given by Jesus, only in Deuteronomy it is to the Israelites, Jesus gave it to the world:
16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live

 

[preistsplace]

and which curse Mr. Lamb, under the Mosaic law condemned the sinner to eternal damnation?

I repeat my question, Mr. Lamb.

 

[timlamb]

I repeat my question, Mr. Lamb.

You waste my time...the question is impertinent.