Universalism

[LightSeaker]

We do not truely exist without our physcial bodies, that is why we need to be physically ressurrected, both the wicked and the righteous to be judged. That is our reality.

That is why it's termed "the second death" because we would have already died and been resurrected "physcially"

Our true selves...our souls, that part of us that is an activity of God...that part of our true selves exist with out a physical body. Because our true selves (our souls) is an activity of God, it can not be tarnished by the physical or false self and will not be judged because it IS an activity of God.

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[heavensprings]

I'd say that True reality is God. All of the rest of this physical world is not true reality. And as long as we cling to this physical reality, as reality...we ARE, right now, IN the lake of fire.

We need to go through our own Sodom and Gomorrah experience to burn our ego away so that all that remains with in us is our true Self, that which is an activity of God with in our soul.

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I love the way you magnify the Lord in all your posts. It's an inspiration to me..

Yes, what we see with our eyes is not the reality... it is Christ.

 

[LightSeaker]

I love the way you magnify the Lord in all your posts. It's an inspiration to me..

Yes, what we see with our eyes is not the reality... it is Christ.

Thank You, your too kind.

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[EyezOFire]

I was accused of speaking out of my behind... Sir I'm not Ace Ventura... (Joke)

I hold to Universal Reconciliation because it really makes more sense, and if I am guilty of anything is expecting too much of God rather than to little. I think people believe if this gets out then people will just go out there and live whatever life they want to because - Jesus will take care of it down the road, sad to say many people already do just that even with the threat of hell fire over there heads. Do I believe in Hell, absolutley, do I believe people will go there? Yes, Do I believe Satan and demons are real ? You betcha... However my strongest conviction is I do not believe God will leave people there forever. I believe through Christ eventually all will be saved atr some point, they may have to go to hell for awhile to pass through the purging fire until the last penny is paid. It says hell will be emptied out... It says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus said If I be lifted up I'll draw all men to myself- The greek word for draw means to drag, look it up in reference with the other scriptures in the new testament. As in peter drawed in the fishing nets.. Same greek word is used.. It means a force pulling greater than that which is being pulled.

 

[Soul Searcher]

We do not truely exist without our physcial bodies, that is why we need to be physically ressurrected, both the wicked and the righteous to be judged. That is our reality.

That is why it's termed "the second death" because we would have already died and been resurrected "physcially"

I do not see the second death as the death of the ressurected, In fact that would be a very odd thing to do, raise someone from the dead so you can cause them to die. There really is no point in such a thing.

Instead I see the second death as the end of death or if you will the death of death, the death of sin, the death of hell. No more will these things exist because all things are now reconcilled. There is some good in all and that good shall not perish, nor shall it be torment forever it shall flourish.

 

[timlamb]

God is way too Holy and Loving and Forgiving and Compassionate to stoop that low.

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It is obvious that you have no idea what being HOLY means, and even less idea of the true and complete nature of God.

 

[heavensprings]

SAVED from what? If you don't believe in Hell then what is there to be saved from?

Err.. hope you don't mind me chiming in... but isn't it DEATH we are saved from?

 

[preistsplace]

SAVED from what? If you don't believe in Hell then what is there to be saved from?

saved from being judged by the law. And the punishment ,does it have to be eternal for you to feel comfortable in your salvation?

 

[heavensprings]

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27

I don't think there is any getting around death. We all have to do that. You can't be saved from death. Your soul is eternal. Your soul is what is saved, not your body. Everyone's bodies will die. Salvation is for the soul.

Your soul is saved from eternity in Hell.

The soul is eternal? The soul is not immortal.. yet.

1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is why there can be no holding place of eternal torment in the universe somewhere... in your belief, if one is to receive eternal life by saying the sinners prayer ()and put on immortality, then the rest are not immortal and cannot live in endless torment.

We are saved from death... that is what the resurrection is all about. If Christ had not been raised from the dead (not eternal torment)... then neither would you be.

Salvation is for the spirit soul and body...

(1Th 5:23) And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

btw... if we are saved from eternal torment, and Christ paid for it... then how come He's not still there?

 

[LightSeaker]

It is obvious that you have no idea what being HOLY means, and even less idea of the true and complete nature of God.

Oh. It's that obvious?

Care to enlighten us?

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[timlamb]

Oh. It's that obvious?

Care to enlighten us?

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Sure!

Being Holy, is to be set apart, not aligned with the standard. We are called on to be Holy, set apart from the world, not just a higher standard but a different standard. God the Father is so far from us in Holyness He cannot be reached except through the Son. The shed blood of Jesus makes us holy.

As for His nature, it is His Holyness that condemns us, for we are born into condemnation. His Grace, supplied through the Son, will save us unto Holyness if we believe and repent.

Think about the nature of God, Think about the Holy Scriptures Jesus studied and quoted. He even read them to the Pharasies concerning Himself and said the prophecy was funfilled and they knew what He meant. Think of the Flood of Noah. God said He was going to destroy the world because He repented that He had made it, but offered to save Noah and His family. It was a hundred years later after the boat was finished that He completed His promise and all were destroyed except those who had faith. Look at the promise to Abraham, God waited four hundred years to give them the special land He had for them and when it happened it resulted in the death of those inhabitants of the land who didn't believe.

No matter how you look at it, God's promises are certain and unbelievers are judged and destroyed. God is a just God, and His judgement is certain.

You guys leave out any verse that doesn't have love and forgivness in it and accuse us of making God small. You short change His character when you leave out that He is a just God.

 

[LightSeaker]

Sure!

Being Holy, is to be set apart, not aligned with the standard. We are called on to be Holy, set apart from the world, not just a higher standard but a different standard. God the Father is so far from us in Holyness He cannot be reached except through the Son. The shed blood of Jesus makes us holy.

What is it about "Holyness" that sets a person or God apart? Your not saying.

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[timlamb]

What is it about "Holyness" that sets a person or God apart? Your not saying.

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God being the only Holy one, I would have thought you would understand that it is sin that seperates the Holy from the un-holy.

 

[LightSeaker]

First you write that I am the one who has no idea what being Holy means when you wrote....

It is obvious that you have no idea what being HOLY means,...<snip>

So I asked what Holiness is, and thus far all your able to say about what Holy is, is that God is Holy. On that we both agree. I at least pointed towards things that made up a sense of Holiness and from that you say I have no idea what Holiness means. So I asked you to enlighten us. But thus far you have point towards nothing that describes Holiness. Help me out please. What IS Holiness? Give me something more than just saying &#8220;God&#8221; is Holy.

God being the only Holy one, I would have thought you would understand that it is sin that separates the Holy from the un-holy.

I'm beginning to wonder if "you" even know yourself what being Holy is.

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[timlamb]

First you write that I am the one who has no idea what being Holy means when you wrote....

So I asked what Holiness is, and thus far all your able to say about what Holy is, is that God is Holy. On that we both agree. I at least pointed towards things that made up a sense of Holiness and from that you say I have no idea what Holiness means. So I asked you to enlighten us. But thus far you have point towards nothing that describes Holiness. Help me out please. What IS Holiness? Give me something more than just saying “God” is Holy.


I'm beginning to wonder if "you" even know yourself what being Holy is.

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I'll paste my first responce, this is what holyness is:

Being Holy, is to be set apart, not aligned with the standard. We are called on to be Holy, set apart from the world, not just a higher standard but a different standard.

Holyness is a state of being, "Be Holy, as your Father in heaven is Holy."

 

[timlamb]

I found this amazing verse. The OT is full of foreshadowing, where something really happens but is also a fore telling of future events. This from Deuteronomy 30 if the salvation story in a nutshell:

11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. Choose Life

15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

Chose life this day, that you may live in the Land God promised.

 

[gort]

I was accused of speaking out of my behind... Sir I'm not Ace Ventura... (Joke)

I hold to Universal Reconciliation because it really makes more sense, and if I am guilty of anything is expecting too much of God rather than to little.

It makes more sense to you because it's easier for you.

I think people believe if this gets out then people will just go out there and live whatever life they want to because - Jesus will take care of it down the road, sad to say many people already do just that even with the threat of hell fire over there heads.

With attitudes such as that their salvation is in question. Why? Because:

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Still, universalism gives an option to people to sin as they please and pay the price later

Do I believe in Hell, absolutley, do I believe people will go there? Yes, Do I believe Satan and demons are real ? You betcha... However my strongest conviction is I do not believe God will leave people there forever. I believe through Christ eventually all will be saved atr some point, they may have to go to hell for awhile to pass through the purging fire until the last penny is paid.

Your conviction is not in the scriptures. There is no exit door from the lake of fire. It's simply not there. One cannot pay the last penney to earn righteousness before God.

It says hell will be emptied out...

It also says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

It says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

ANd it also says:

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 He says, Only in Jehovah do I have righteousness and strength; even to Him he comes. And they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him.

Difficult to imagine that some of those who will bow knee to God can still be angry with Him. Must mean something, yes?

Jesus said If I be lifted up I'll draw all men to myself- The greek word for draw means to drag, look it up in reference with the other scriptures in the new testament. As in peter drawed in the fishing nets.. Same greek word is used.. It means a force pulling greater than that which is being pulled.

I agree. However it does'nt mean that all will accept Christ and be reborn. Judas lived with Jesus for 3 years and what happened?

 

[timlamb]

It makes more sense to you because it's easier for you.




With attitudes such as that their salvation is in question. Why? Because:

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Still, universalism gives an option to people to sin as they please and pay the price later



Your conviction is not in the scriptures. There is no exit door from the lake of fire. It's simply not there. One cannot pay the last penney to earn righteousness before God.




It also says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.



ANd it also says:



Difficult to imagine that some of those who will bow knee to God can still be angry with Him. Must mean something, yes?



I agree. However it does'nt mean that all will accept Christ and be reborn. Judas lived with Jesus for 3 years and what happened?

Gort, thanks, this is very good.

Sometimes in my passion to refute their teaching I focus so much on attempting to prove them wrong that I fail to notice their facts are true it is their theories and assumtions that are in error.

He WILL drag all men unto Himself, but some will get life, and others death; some rewards and others judgement.

 

[gort]

Once you can accept that eternal torment doesn't exist it becomes easier.

But that's just it, eternal wrath does exist.

After all, you can't answer any of my points as how a literal satan makes any sense can you?

Of course a literal satan makes sense. He is a created being who rebelled against God. Stood before God about Job. Gets cast into the lake of fire. Tempted Eve. Tempted Jesus. Took 1/3 of the angels with him in rebellion.

Why would such a being possibly rebel when it had absolutely no chance? did it somehow think it could overthrow an ALL POWERFUL God? How does that make sense?

I can't answer that for you. I was'nt in heaven as a perfect angle who beheld God and turned bad. And neither were you. It's difficult to image, yes, but it does'nt make it impossible because you can't understand how that could be.

If you are a reborn child of God, how is it that you still rebel against God from time to time and commit sin?


Otherwise, I would image God created His creatures with free will choice as GOd is seeking those who want to worship Him in spirit and truth.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.

That still isn't answering the question is it? If satan is the tempter then what on earth tempted satan if he was created perfect?

Actually it does answer the question. Sin must run in deeper waters than we can imagine if many in heaven beheld God and still rebelled. From the scriptures though, I would say that being the highest angel, satan still ended up wanting more, having a place higher than Gods. As far as I'm concerned, God made an empty place called sin and gave it a power of sorts.




btw, you want to claim that satan is a metaphor, is the 1/3 of the host of angels that also rebelled metaphors too?

 

[EyezOFire]

It makes more sense to you because it's easier for you.




With attitudes such as that their salvation is in question. Why? Because:

1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Still, universalism gives an option to people to sin as they please and pay the price later



Your conviction is not in the scriptures. There is no exit door from the lake of fire. It's simply not there. One cannot pay the last penney to earn righteousness before God.




It also says hell will be cast into the lake of fire.



ANd it also says:



Difficult to imagine that some of those who will bow knee to God can still be angry with Him. Must mean something, yes?



I agree. However it does'nt mean that all will accept Christ and be reborn. Judas lived with Jesus for 3 years and what happened?

You say it's easier for me.. It wasnt an easy conclusion to come to, because I like everyone else was taught Hell was eternal. It's something I wrestled with for months, just like other people who've walked down this road. However you have to look at the translation of the word in question and which would be the greek word Aion and go through it and study it out.

Let me ask you all these questions...
Why is it so threatening to you to tell people about Universal Reconciliation ? I want to hear the heart of those opposing it's what the core issue is.

I would also ask to those violently opposing it have you actually looked into it for youself and formed your own conclusions?

How do you know that your so right and we're so wrong, and how do you know it ?

What happens if say you're right and we're wrong, when (as I've said before) none of us here will get to make those decisions anyways, does it even matter ?