Universalism

[Stryder06]

I don't know if you answered this but I'm sure it was asked.....What about those that have no exposure to the gospel? A 15 yo muslim in the ME that has never heard of Christ certainly can't choose to believe something he doesn't know exists.

Haven't answered that in this thread

Only God knows the heart. I believe He judges based on each individual and their opprotunity to know the truth. If the truth has never been presented to said 15yo yet he lives up to the that which he knows, serving God as best as he can than I believe God will judge him based on that.

My comments typically refer to individuals who have a chance to know but turn it away.

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by b.hopeful

I don't know if you answered this but I'm sure it was asked.....What about those that have no exposure to the gospel? A 15 yo muslim in the ME that has never heard of Christ certainly can't choose to believe something he doesn't know exists.
​

Questions like this don't detract from the truth of facts we're
given in scripture.
We either trust God becuz of who He says He is (Just, righteous, holy,
true, love) (and by what scripture examples and teaches us
directly),
or we define Him by our own preferences and then
force the bible to say what we demand it says and what we
want to be true.

To answer that Q specifically, Romans 1 covers this fully.
NO MAN is without excuse for rejection of God becuz He
has made Himself known thru creation -
and revelation to mankind thru the conscience
Romans 2:15-16.

AND by special revelations where He directly draws everyone
to Himself to seek God

AND by scriptural revelation to know truth directly from His
written testimony.

So there are different ways that God reveals Himself to
each type of person on the earth.
Those with less revelation are responsible for less,
those who are given more to know more, are responsible
for what they were shown and rejected.

God is JUST and He knows how much He's revealed to
everyone and how to judge that.

 

[Stryder06]

Who says God didn't create the Earth? Or discard parts? Is there no such thing as metaphor or symbology in the bible for you? Is all of the book of Revelation literal in your opinion?

You said you don't believe the earth is approx 6000 yrs old. How old is it? How did it come about? Your statement lead me to believe that you may consider evolution as truth, which would be a problem. I apologize if I made an incorrect assumption.

The book of Revelation uses symbols to talk about litteral events, so yes it is litteral.

You've completely failed to address the point. Do you imagine this co worker of yours would refuse to accept a million dollar pay rise if it was tangibly and irrefutably in front of him? Man often is foolish, stupid, prone to fallibility etc etc. I am he! Your analogy fails because you aren't presenting a million dollars in tangible money to somebody, effectively you're asking them to take an intangible thing on faith which is different.

I ask you again. Do you think that anyone (your co worker for example) would voluntarily and willingly walk into a pit of fire if they knew beyond doubt it was there?

Again, I have not failed to address the issue. The bible gives us so many examples showing that seeing is no believing. Did not the children of Israel build for themselves an idol of gold while God sat on a mountain with Moses not some 100 yards away from them?

Seeing doesn't matter if your heart isn't with God. Of course my co-worker would take the million because he values it. He however does not value God yet thus He fills as if God doesn't matter. I've given him several of my own testimonies showing how God has worked in supernatural ways within my own life. His response was "meh"

Unless the heart is converted no change will occur. God could sit them down and spell out everything for them from end to end, this however will not cause them to repent if they have choosen not to love God, but the world instead.

Again, Lucifer sat in heaven. He covered God's glory, and He fell. He tried to fight His creator. The God who spoke the world into existence, Lucifer thought he could conquer.

Sin is enmity against God, and it doesn't matter what measures are taken, unless the heart willingly submits to God there will never be change, save God force the change, which He will not do.

 

[Nadiine]

I deny Satan is real but it all makes complete sense...actually, it makes even more sense to me. Back when I thought to accept Jesus Christ meant I had to check my brain and heart at the door...I couldn't comprehend ever being a religious person. Thankfully, I was shown The Way.

imo, checking our brain at the door is the act of tossing obvious
scripture out the window to follow our own humanistic reasonings
and preferences becuz we're the corrupted ones.

The Bible is given to us to enlighten us as to who God is and how
He operates, what He demands for us, what pleases Him and what doesn't, etc.

It's to show us who God is (who is above our knowledge &
understanding/comprehension), so for man to just mold God
into his own image IS checking one's brain at the door becuz
they aren't learning anything, they're making a god in
their own image.
Common to their human nature; bringing God DOWN to their
lower level of knowledge and understanding.

 

[Nadiine]

Stryder:

Again, I have not failed to address the issue. The bible gives us so many examples showing that seeing is no believing. Did not the children of Israel build for themselves an idol of gold while God sat on a mountain with Moses not some 100 yards away from them?

Jesus would agree:
Mt 13
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

And to Red:

YES, people do believe hell exists! MANY do - what they believe
however is that they are not going to end up there becuz
they are "good people".
They conveniently compare themselves to monsters like
Hitler in order to feel justified for their own lifestyles.

Further, people believe HEAVEN EXISTS TOO - that sure doesnt'
make them accept God right now, does it?

So proof or truth of any eternal place doesn't convince
anyone of any side to convert or not convert.
You cannot use it to support Universalism, it doesn't float.

 

[Hentenza]

What does eternal mean?

 

[Stryder06]

What does eternal mean?

Well it depends. When it comes to God we know it is refering to His being/nature/everything as having been always.

When it comes to sinners and their destruction, we know it's talking about the effects of the punishment they will suffer.

S&G was destroyed by eternal fire as the book of Jude says, but it sure enough is not burning still today.

 

[Tissue]

I made a lot of posts ages ago, replying to questions that some of you had, and I've yet to see a reply to them. Perhaps I missed them. Perhaps they weren't posted.

 

[PT Calvinist]

highly unlikely

Then would you show me where universal doctrine is found in scripture? You can't...I'm really tired of how Universalists use the word "Aionion" of one context and ASSUME that it fits every single verse that has the word.

If this is the case..how come no one has still answered whether or not God is eternal or not...after all, Universalists apply the word to every verse that contains it..

 

[Tissue]

Then would you show me where universal doctrine is found in scripture? You can't...I'm really tired of how Universalists use the word "Aionion" of one context and ASSUME that it fits every single verse that has the word.

If this is the case..how come no one has still answered whether or not God is eternal or not...after all, Universalists apply the word to every verse that contains it..

That at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow, on heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Tissue]

This is the whole problem, deny the scriptures and nothing makes sense.:o

Scripture isn't denied. We affirm that verses like the ones you have listed are meaningful. We don't think that Satan, however, is an actual person. Rather 'Satan' refers to something within every person; that is, a tendency toward sin (roughly).

 

[Stryder06]

Scripture isn't denied. We affirm that verses like the ones you have listed are meaningful. We don't think that Satan, however, is an actual person. Rather 'Satan' refers to something within every person; that is, a tendency toward sin (roughly).

The problem with that is the fact that man wasn't created with sinful tendencies thus there would be no reason for him to give in to a feeling that wasn't there.

And how do you explain the fall talked about in revelation that included 1/3 of the angelic hosts, as well as the verse in Jude that states that the angels which kept not there first estate have been bond in everlasting chains under darkness, reserved until the day of judgement?

 

[Tissue]

The problem with that is the fact that man wasn't created with sinful tendencies thus there would be no reason for him to give in to a feeling that wasn't there.

The serpent is never once called 'Satan'.

If humanity was not created with sinful tendencies, then they never would have sinned.

And how do you explain the fall talked about in revelation that included 1/3 of the angelic hosts, as well as the verse in Jude that states that the angels which kept not there first estate have been bond in everlasting chains under darkness, reserved until the day of judgement?

Revelation is, as best as I can tell, a political allegory.

As for Jude, I have no idea. I haven't a clue how the author would know something like that.

 

[Stryder06]

The serpent is never once called 'Satan'.

If humanity was not created with sinful tendencies, then they never would have sinned.

The bible calls Satan that serpent of old.
Man wasn't created with sinful tendencies. Man sinned because he choose to. Just like Lucifer. He was created perfect just as the bible says, but than iniquity was found in his heart.

Revelation is, as best as I can tell, a political allegory.

As for Jude, I have no idea. I haven't a clue how the author would know something like that.

You should study it closer. Revelation reveals God working in human history all the way up to the end. It's meant to be understood. And Jude knew what he knew through divine revelation (at least, thats imo )

 

[brinny]

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (King James Version)

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[LightSeaker]

If you deny the scriptures, what Jesus do you believe in?

I'll answer that one. I don't "believe" in any Jesus.

But I do "experience" and "live" in a Jesus Christ of Love, Compassion, Mercy, Forgiveness, Salvation and Life itself.

.

 

[Tissue]

The bible calls Satan that serpent of old.

Doesn't say it in Genesis.

Man wasn't created with sinful tendencies. Man sinned because he choose to. Just like Lucifer. He was created perfect just as the bible says, but than iniquity was found in his heart.

So, humanity didn't have sinful tendencies (which is to say, they were not inclined to choose sin). A human just happened one day to choose sin.

That doesn't sound so reasonable. Sounds a lot like humanity had an inclination toward sin, or they never would have sinned in the first place.

You should study it closer. Revelation reveals God working in human history all the way up to the end. It's meant to be understood. And Jude knew what he knew through divine revelation (at least, thats imo )

I should study Revelation closer.

And it's possible that Jude knew what he claimed through divine revelation.

 

[Nadiine]

Then would you show me where universal doctrine is found in scripture? You can't...I'm really tired of how Universalists use the word "Aionion" of one context and ASSUME that it fits every single verse that has the word.

If this is the case..how come no one has still answered whether or not God is eternal or not...after all, Universalists apply the word to every verse that contains it..

That's exactly the problem - we have given tons of evidence
and rebuttals, but they just move onto the next "proof".

Granted, I have seen them do a better job this round of actually
trying to make more responses to the rebuttals - so I give them
that credit this time.
The last debate I was in was horrible with ignoring rebuttals

 

[Nadiine]

I'll answer that one. I don't "believe" in any Jesus.

But I do "experience" and "live" in a Jesus Christ of Love, Compassion, Mercy, Forgiveness, Salvation and Life itself.

.

 

[LightSeaker]

It has to do with one's reality in life.

Is Jesus Christ only something to "believe" in?
Or...do we actually live in Christ as our reality.

.