Universalism

[red77]

That's exactly what it's based on at the source.

Thats ignorant. Who are you to declare that the source of universalism is rooted soley in feeling and not in scripture? I'll admit that my initial questioning of 'modern' orthodoxy was borne out of emotion, but I was so disillusioned with dogma and religion that I practically abandoned it for ten years because I couldn't reconcile the inconsistencies that I personally saw. I rejected universalism because it seemed too good to be true. It was only later and with a bit more research and knowledge that I saw it as being scripturally sound along with "feeling". Lets face it. We aren't robots right?

 

[red77]

God, or a parent, would only be cruel if they forced a person to love them. God sometimes works through tribulations, just like a parent, but some decide on their own not to listen. God has revealed Himself not just in scripture but also in nature. The people that reject God's love are without excuse. God would actually be a pretty bad parent if He condoned (without punishment) the bad actions of His children, don't you think?

Let me ask you, why would God force His love on those that do not want to love Him?

Why are you continually avoiding my question about life being forced on people in the first place? I have no problem with bad actions being punished but what you advocate is an eternal purposeless punishment which achieves nothing but pain for the child. Your analogy doesn't work. Would you support a human parent locking up their child in the basement for the rest of their life for stealing a cookie?
Do you think that all non believers willingly choose to reject God? Do you think that once confronted with the creator of their existence they would 'choose' hell instead?
Please answer my questions.

 

[LightSeaker]

God IS with bounds... bounds HE sets for Himself.

We are told directly that "God cannot lie".
Lying is out of bounds for God becuz HE CANNOT SIN.

This goes with the rest of His attributes.
He cannot NOT be Just. Or give justice for evil.
That is out of His bounds.

We don't limit Him, but He chooses to limit Himself
by His own constraints set (due to who He is)
A Holy, infinite, perfect GOD who opposes all evil.

This has nothing to do with "power" or ability,
it has everything to do with who God is.
(which universalists "universally" botch in His
character/attributes as they project onto God
what THEY think love is/justice is/peace is/
restoration is/ etc. so then God HAS to do
what they think that means to them).

These are the limitations you guys continue to
place onto God to confine Him in your self
made boxes.
YOU are limiting God, not us and not sinners
[/indent]

God is infinate Love. That means that He has no limits in the reach of His Love. In real life, we can see that God is very much alive and active within the hearts and souls of many who are not Christian. Divine Love works like that...why? Because it is a love that is not bounded or limited by Human beliefs or theology. In the way Love works, it also means that God has no limits in His reach or blessings upon all of His Creation. It's a Love that reaches far and wide.

.

 

[Hentenza]

Why are you continually avoiding my question about life being forced on people in the first place? I have no problem with bad actions being punished but what you advocate is an eternal purposeless punishment which achieves nothing but pain for the child. Your analogy doesn't work. Would you support a human parent locking up their child in the basement for the rest of their life for stealing a cookie?
Do you think that all non believers willingly choose to reject God? Do you think that once confronted with the creator of their existence they would 'choose' hell instead?
Please answer my questions.

Please show me one place in the scriptures were there is a second chance after death.

 

[Stryder06]

Who do you think wouldn't accept it once they'd been confronted with the fact that their very existence was own to God? How could anyone refuse to accept it? A lot of people hope for something more than this one earthly existence, is not being a born again believer equatable to conscious rejection in your view?

Yes, people live unhealthily in a lot of ways and make many bad decisions in life. I should know, I'm one of 'em! That doesn't mean to say that everyone can't be redeemed.

And without wishing to cause offence you're rather naive if you think that in general people 'gloss over the dross' in life. For many people having the "gloss" isn't even an option...

Did not Lucifer fall while living in heaven? Didn't Cain run from God after slaughtering his brother and live his life in apostasy? Did pharaoh ever repent? Didn't he chase after Israel even though his kingdom had been destroyed by the hand of God?

This is the result of free will. God allows men to choose to live without Him. Man will know what God has done for him. But acceptance isn't implicit with knowledge.

And no offense taken, the only naive thing is to ignore scripture that explicity states that the wicked will be destroyed. I never understood how people are willing to accept the idea that all men, even those sinful to the end, will be saved, but somehow Satan and those who have fallen with him are beyond redemption.

 

[red77]

Oh back to the "LOVE" excuse.

God is love, He also allows innocent little girls to be
raped and murdered by perverted killers....

I can make lists of all the attrocities God has
allowed in His love to happen to people.

Eternal separation will be no different than what
He allows to happen to people for whatever His
purposes. (and there is always purpose in suffering)

What purpose is there to eternal suffering Nadiine? What?! In fact why
is there always purpose to suffering? I don't find much purpose when I
stub my toe Nadiine, I dunno about you....
You're not the only one to be sickened by the vile acts that man is capable of, you constantly use your own emotional arguments in order to try and justify your doctrine. You hate cruelty to animals.
So do I. You hate rape, murder, molestation etc, so do I.
So would any sensible and empathic peson on this thread.
The difference is that nobody else is using the horror that this life
can throw as a justification for an indescribably horrific fate in the next.
Your doctrine makes the death camps look like Disneyworld.
And that alone is sickening.
You use emotionalism as an argument as much as anyone. You don't
agree with annihaltionism let alone universalism because people don't
'suffer the penalty'. Another irony....

 

[red77]

Please show me one place in the scriptures were there is a second chance after death.

I will answer your question when you do me the coutresy of answering my own. Debate is a two way thing.

 

[Hentenza]

I will answer your question when you do me the coutresy of answering my own. Debate is a two way thing.

Red,

I thought I did. Which question would you like for me to answer?

 

[red77]

Red,

I thought I did. Which question would you like for me to answer?

Post #1266 is still waiting to be addressed!

 

[Hentenza]

Why are you continually avoiding my question about life being forced on people in the first place? I have no problem with bad actions being punished but what you advocate is an eternal purposeless punishment which achieves nothing but pain for the child. Your analogy doesn't work. Would you support a human parent locking up their child in the basement for the rest of their life for stealing a cookie?
Do you think that all non believers willingly choose to reject God? Do you think that once confronted with the creator of their existence they would 'choose' hell instead?
Please answer my questions.

Life is not being forced on anyone. God chose to create the world. He didn't have to but He did. Maybe you can enlighten me as to how is this relevant?

 

[red77]

Did not Lucifer fall while living in heaven? Didn't Cain run from God after slaughtering his brother and live his life in apostasy? Did pharaoh ever repent? Didn't he chase after Israel even though his kingdom had been destroyed by the hand of God?

This is the result of free will. God allows men to choose to live without Him. Man will know what God has done for him. But acceptance isn't implicit with knowledge.

And no offense taken, the only naive thing is to ignore scripture that explicity states that the wicked will be destroyed. I never understood how people are willing to accept the idea that all men, even those sinful to the end, will be saved, but somehow Satan and those who have fallen with him are beyond redemption.

No doubt this will be construed as heretical by some but I don't believe in Satan as a literal 'fallen angel' anyway. I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old either which is equally heretical from a biblical literalist point of view at times.
I also don't believe we have absolute free will. Limited will perhaps but not free. And if you don't understand why people believe that everyone can be reconciled then why not? Are you any better than your neighbour that doesn't believe? Can you take any credit for your own belief? As for a scriptural perspective then here is a selection of verses that indicate that God has things set up where all creation can be restored.

Props to Chaela:

Apocat-Ecstatic!: Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things

 

[red77]

Life is not being forced on anyone. God chose to create the world. He didn't have to but He did. Maybe you can enlighten me as to how is this relevant?

How is it not being forced on anyone? Did you or anyone else have a say in being born? Did you have a choice? This is bemusing to say the least....

 

[Hentenza]

How is it not being forced on anyone? Did you or anyone else have a say in being born? Did you have a choice? This is bemusing to say the least....

So, is it your contention that just because you did not choose to be born God owes you? Have you sent your parents the bill yet?

 

[brinny]

How is it not being forced on anyone? Did you or anyone else have a say in being born? Did you have a choice? This is bemusing to say the least....

God must let it all play out so that all of His children are born. After that, He will separate the tares from the wheat.

Everyone knows what this means. It is written for all to see.

 

[Stryder06]

No doubt this will be construed as heretical by some but I don't believe in Satan as a literal 'fallen angel' anyway. I don't believe that the earth is only 6000 years old either which is equally heretical from a biblical literalist point of view at times.
I also don't believe we have absolute free will. Limited will perhaps but not free.

Should this be the case than you know that their is no God either right?

And if you don't understand why people believe that everyone can be reconciled then why not? Are you any better than your neighbour that doesn't believe? Can you take any credit for your own belief? As for a scriptural perspective then here is a selection of verses that indicate that God has things set up where all creation can be restored.

Props to Chaela:

Apocat-Ecstatic!: Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things

It's all about choice. I've choosen to follow God and have accepted the gift of salvation that He has given me.

I explained this to a young man at my church and someone else on this form as such:

If i have a million dollars and tell you its a gift, can I force you to take it? I can chase you around, throw it at you, even leave it at your house or put it in your pocket, but unless you accept the money, or keep it than it will never be yours. At the end of the day whose fault is it that you're not a millionaire?

It's not about being better than anyone, it's about acceptance of the free gift that God has given to us. That gift comes with stipulations, and that is where the problem for alot of people will come in. If you could make it to heaven doing whatever you wanted than of course everyone would be saved. But that isn't the way it is, we have to die to self and give up the love of this world to be fit for the world to come.

We look at scripture in light of scripture, we don't throw out one in favor of another. The scriptures in regard to salvation apply to those who will accept it, just as the scriptures in regard to the fate of the wicked applies to them alone.

Remember, no one has to be lost. People will choose to be lost because they will not give their lives over to Christ.

 

[red77]

So, is it your contention that just because you did not choose to be born God owes you? Have you sent your parents the bill yet?

The point is that you can hardly argue about force when life is forced upon people in the first place never mind love. No, I haven't sent my parents a 'bill'. If I have children I won't 'owe' them anything either apart from a responsible duty to bring them up with love and care as it would be my choice to bring life into the world. By the same token they wouldn't owe me anything either. I would hope they would love me obviously but I wouldn't threaten them with lifelong grounding in the basement if they didn't.

 

[Hentenza]

The point is that you can hardly argue about force when life is forced upon people in the first place never mind love. No, I haven't sent my parents a 'bill'. If I have children I won't 'owe' them anything either apart from a responsible duty to bring them up with love and care as it would be my choice to bring life into the world. By the same token they wouldn't owe me anything either. I would hope they would love me obviously but I wouldn't threaten them with lifelong grounding in the basement if they didn't.

You arguing the point using a category fallacy so if you carry it to its logical conclusion then God should not have created anything simply because He knew that some would not obey Him. If that was the case then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Red, scriptures tells us that what we do in this life has eternal consequences. If a person, by his/her own choosing, decides to reject God then God will not force His love on that person. God is an infinite, atemporal being, therefore, God's punishment is also infinite and atemporal. There is no time in heaven.

 

[b.hopeful]

Remember, no one has to be lost. People will choose to be lost because they will not give their lives over to Christ.

I don't know if you answered this but I'm sure it was asked.....What about those that have no exposure to the gospel? A 15 yo muslim in the ME that has never heard of Christ certainly can't choose to believe something he doesn't know exists.

 

[red77]

Should this be the case than you know that their is no God either right?

What?

It's all about choice. I've choosen to follow God and have accepted the gift of salvation that He has given me.

I explained this to a young man at my church and someone else on this form as such:

If i have a million dollars and tell you its a gift, can I force you to take it? I can chase you around, throw it at you, even leave it at your house or put it in your pocket, but unless you accept the money, or keep it than it will never be yours. At the end of the day whose fault is it that you're not a millionaire?

It's not about being better than anyone, it's about acceptance of the free gift that God has given to us. That gift comes with stipulations, and that is where the problem for alot of people will come in. If you could make it to heaven doing whatever you wanted than of course everyone would be saved. But that isn't the way it is, we have to die to self and give up the love of this world to be fit for the world to come.

We look at scripture in light of scripture, we don't throw out one in favor of another. The scriptures in regard to salvation apply to those who will accept it, just as the scriptures in regard to the fate of the wicked applies to them alone.

Remember, no one has to be lost. People will choose to be lost because they will not give their lives over to Christ.

[/QUOTE]

This is a similar analogy I've encountered countless times. The flaw is pretty obvious. How many people do you honestly think would refuse the tangible money that they can see, know is there beyond question and would refuse? Not many I wager right?
How many would choose to reject the money once it was in front of their face? honestly, how many do you think would refuse such a gift?

Do you honestly think that all non believers consciously choose to reject God? Willingly and with full knowledge of what awaits them if they do reject? Your analogy doesn't work. Do you think that anyone would willingly walk into a fire if they knew it was there?

Do you?

If God states that He will reconcile all things then how much interpretation do you need to counter that God can't?

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by red77

How is it not being forced on anyone? Did you or anyone else have a say in being born? Did you have a choice? This is bemusing to say the least....
​

Red, I've mentioned this a few times now and it
goes ignored,

but your scenario of Universalism plays upon the same "force".
These lost souls who reject God still have to "Pay for their sins"
till they repent...
don't you think that's force when they're in severe punishments
for (you don't know HOW long... thousands of years in eternal
timeframe??), and you don't think that after about 10 years they'll
give up and finally submit after so much pain & torment?

Look at the Rich man in Luke 16, BEGGING for just a drop of
water. That was immediately after!
Tack on decades & hundreds of years to that (becuz you have
no clue how long punishment is for them) -

That turns into force. Submit or stay here. ???