Universalism

[red77]

You arguing the point using a category fallacy so if you carry it to its logical conclusion then God should not have created anything simply because He knew that some would not obey Him. If that was the case then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Red, scriptures tells us that what we do in this life has eternal consequences. If a person, by his/her own choosing, decides to reject God then God will not force His love on that person. God is an infinite, atemporal being, therefore, God's punishment is also infinite and atemporal. There is no time in heaven.

Scripture says that God reconciles all things. Again, you argue that God would not force love onto people but He will force life onto them. Tell me, do you have kids? If so aren't you forcing your love onto them every time you kiss them goodnight or discipline them for their own wellbeing and development? Do you ever withold love from them?

 

[Nadiine]

And if you don't understand why people believe that everyone can be reconciled then why not?

We "understand" it just fine, it's just refuted by scripture in
MANY places. Understanding in no way means you agree w/
something.

Are you any better than your neighbour that doesn't believe?

What does this have to do with being saved?
I constantly see bad rationalizations & reasonings given here
to try to support a false doctrine.

 

[red77]

Red, I've mentioned this a few times now and it
goes ignored,

but your scenario of Universalism plays upon the same "force".
These lost souls who reject God still have to "Pay for their sins"
till they repent...
don't you think that's force when they're in severe punishments
for (you don't know HOW long... thousands of years in eternal
timeframe??), and you don't think that after about 10 years they'll
give up and finally submit after so much pain & torment?

Look at the Rich man in Luke 16, BEGGING for just a drop of
water. That was immediately after!
Tack on decades & hundreds of years to that (becuz you have
no clue how long punishment is for them) -

That turns into force. Submit or stay here. ???

Nadiine

I addressed this to you earlier in case you missed my reply. In no way can you equate unending suffering with a temporal variety. Thats is plainly ridiculous! And as explained prior I don't believe that repentance is borne from torture anyway! I don't believe in a literal fiery place of punishment.

The rich man and lazarus is a parable. A man on fire would not be able to speak let alone ask for 'a drop of water for his tongue'. What difference would that make?! Seriously?

Have you never had to confront the truth of your own actions before and the pain it's caused yourself or others? If you have did it not hurt? Do you see where I'm going with this?

 

[Nadiine]

Scripture says that God reconciles all things. Again, you argue that God would not force love onto people but He will force life onto them. Tell me, do you have kids? If so aren't you forcing your love onto them every time you kiss them goodnight or discipline them for their own wellbeing and development? Do you ever withold love from them?

oh boy.

Reconciling all things to God does NOT mean that people aren't
reconciled by being separated and paying their sin debt ;
eternally separated.
Satan isn't reconciled to God either - the bible doesn't teach
that anywhere that demons & angels get reconciled & at peace
with God.

In fact, they believe right now that God is true yet aren't
in unity with God by choice.
Satan is let back out of Gehenna to work evil on another
generation eons later in time.

This fallacy is false.

 

[red77]

We "understand" it just fine, it's just refuted by scripture in
MANY places. Understanding in no way means you agree w/
something.


What does this have to do with being saved?
I constantly see bad rationalizations & reasonings given here
to try to support a false doctrine.

I constantly see you using subjective rationalizations to justify your own
stance and the ironic 'God limiting' argument you accuse 'Uni's' of doing.
If God says He will reconcile all things then I'm not going to say
God either can't or won't. It's plastered in scripture and all you seem to
have as refutation is tiresome arguments such as 'bad reasoning' as
well as a penchant for totally avoiding direct questions:

WOULD IT ANNOY YOU IF ALL PEOPLE WERE RECONCILED TO GOD?

 

[Hentenza]

Scripture says that God reconciles all things. Again, you argue that God would not force love onto people but He will force life onto them.

Is God reconciled to the sinner or is the sinner reconciled to God?

Tell me, do you have kids? If so aren't you forcing your love onto them every time you kiss them goodnight or discipline them for their own wellbeing and development? Do you ever withold love from them?

I have 2 kids and 5 grandkids. I have never forced my love on them. When my daughter was a teen and didn't want daddy kissing her in public I didn't. It is notable to say that, from my experience, I have never had to ask for the love of my children. It was always freely given. Maybe you grew up in a different type of household.

You are using emotion to argue your case. Emotion is subjective and does not work well in debate.

 

[red77]

oh boy.

Reconciling all things to God does NOT mean that people aren't
reconciled by being separated and paying their sin debt ;
eternally separated.
Satan isn't reconciled to God either - the bible doesn't teach
that anywhere that demons & angels get reconciled & at peace
with God.

In fact, they believe right now that God is true yet aren't
in unity with God by choice.
Satan is let back out of Gehenna to work evil on another
generation eons later in time.

This fallacy is false.

Some of us don't believe in a literal satan which will no doubt be heretical too....

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine

I addressed this to you earlier in case you missed my reply. In no way can you equate unending suffering with a temporal variety.

Yes you can and must.

Sin does not "go away" by some payment by human beings.

Look back to the OT Law. Atonement is only via blood sacrifice.
Even then, animal blood did not remove the sin, it merely
allowed God to overlook it temporarily, but it must be dealt
with.

The sin people keep thru refusal to repent and accept their
sacrifice for sin means THEIR SIN IS ETERNAL AND ETERNALLY
KEPT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.
Yes the actions they did were temporal/physical, but the
sin itself that was created by the action is permanent.

Sin being permanent, renders a permanent seclusion from
all that is recreated by God in the restoration for the SAINTS
ONLY who have repented and recieved atonement by
Christ upon acceptance of it over their sin.

Temporal actions create permanent sin which demands permanent
separation/seclusion from what is purified by God; promised by
Him to all who recieve the Son in sin's place.

 

[red77]

Is God reconciled to the sinner or is the sinner reconciled to God?

Everything is reconciled to God. That should answer the question

I have 2 kids and 5 grandkids. I have never forced my love on them. When my daughter was a teen and didn't want daddy kissing her in public I didn't. It is notable to say that, from my experience, I have never had to ask for the love of my children. It was always freely given. Maybe you grew up in a different type of household.

You are using emotion to argue your case. Emotion is subjective and does not work well in debate.

Ironically you're only proving my point. By respecting your daughters wishes you were still loving her right? I wasn't calling your parenting into question, rather that you force love onto children as a parent, as any loving parent would do. If I saw my young child walking towards danger I would intervene out of love. You would too so let's stop dancing around the issue. You do force your love, like anyone else.

To be honest that comment about 'my household' felt like a petty and unneccassary dig. I didn't grow up in a such a 'household' at all for your information.

Finally I am not simply using emotion to argue my case. I'm using it in part and it certainly isn't invalid to adopt it as such. As has been said we are not 'robots' and as such our emotions are there and presumably God given correct? They're also not absolutely "subjective". I'm sure I can rely on you to be sickened by acts of senseless cruelty that our compassion and empathy rails against correct? Please stop with that strawman argument.

 

[Hentenza]

Everything is reconciled to God. That should answer the question

No, that doesn't answer the question. Is the sinner reconciled to God or is God reconciled to the sinner?

Ironically you're only proving my point. By respecting your daughters wishes you were still loving her right? I wasn't calling your parenting into question, rather that you force love onto children as a parent, as any loving parent would do. If I saw my young child walking towards danger I would intervene out of love. You would too so let's stop dancing around the issue. You do force your love, like anyone else.

I do not force my love on anyone and neither does God.

To be honest that comment about 'my household' felt like a petty and unneccassary dig. I didn't grow up in a such a 'household' at all for your information.

That wasn't my intention. If I insulted you please forgive me.

Finally I am not simply using emotion to argue my case. I'm using it in part and it certainly isn't invalid to adopt it as such. As has been said we are not 'robots' and as such our emotions are there and presumably God given correct? They're also not absolutely "subjective". I'm sure I can rely on you to be sickened by acts of senseless cruelty that our compassion and empathy rails against correct? Please stop with that strawman argument.

I am not sickened at all by God's respect and love for His creation. CS Lewis said it very well in his famous work "The Great Divorce". I quoted this earlier but I'll quote it again because I think that he captures the essence quite well.

There are only two kinds of people – those who say "Thy will be done" to God or those to whom God in the end says, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice it wouldn't be Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will every miss it.

 

[red77]

Yes you can and must.

Sin does not "go away" by some payment by human beings.

Look back to the OT Law. Atonement is only via blood sacrifice.
Even then, animal blood did not remove the sin, it merely
allowed God to overlook it temporarily, but it must be dealt
with.

The sin people keep thru refusal to repent and accept their
sacrifice for sin means THEIR SIN IS ETERNAL AND ETERNALLY
KEPT TO THEIR ACCOUNT.
Yes the actions they did were temporal/physical, but the
sin itself that was created by the action is permanent.

Sin being permanent, renders a permanent seclusion from
all that is recreated by God in the restoration for the SAINTS
ONLY who have repented and recieved atonement by
Christ upon acceptance of it over their sin.

Temporal actions create permanent sin which demands permanent
separation/seclusion from what is purified by God; promised by
Him to all who recieve the Son in sin's place.

No.

In the context of your argument you stated that 'Unis' are no different than you because they still believe that suffering and torture is part of what induces repentance. The obvioius counter to that was that any temporal suffering would ultimately fade into insignificance in comparison to an Unending eternity of pain and torment. This is what you are now failing to address. You can't really. It was ridiculous to start with! You're the only person I can recall who's even tried that as an argument!

notwithstanding the fact that many 'Unis' don't believe it's agonizing torment that occurs anyway...

And frankly I'm tired of you constantly avoiding questions. I've addressed you time and again and I'm still waiting for your answer as to whether you'd be annoyed if all people were reconciled. It's very telling.

 

[red77]

No, that doesn't answer the question. Is the sinner reconciled to God or is God reconciled to the sinner?

If everything is reconciled to God then you have your answer

I do not force my love on anyone and neither does God.

With respect, yes you do. Any time you protect your child from harm you are forcing your love on them whether they appreciate it or not. this is not a bad thing!

That wasn't my intention. If I insulted you please forgive me.

I may have over reacted on that. Apologies myself. The cut and thrust of debate and all....

I am not sickened at all by God's respect and love for His creation. CS Lewis said it very well in his famous work "The Great Divorce". I quoted this earlier but I'll quote it again because I think that he captures the essence quite well.

I'm not either. I'm sickened by the doctrine of eternal suffering as I've explained from more than an emotional perspective in itself. I also love 'The Chronicles Of Narnia' btw...

 

[red77]

God must let it all play out so that all of His children are born. After that, He will separate the tares from the wheat.

Everyone knows what this means. It is written for all to see.

Oh I see. God must let it all play out like this so those such as yourself are inheritants of the kingdom? Well who am I to say that God must not play it any other way?

When it comes to separating it's quite telling that many of those are actually believers given the passages. Hmmmm

 

[Stryder06]

What?

Just what I said. Our God is an all or nothing God. You can't take some of the bible and throw out the rest, believe parts and discard parts. Either The God of the bible is real and He created the earth and satan the way the bible says, or He didn't which means that He isn't.

This is a similar analogy I've encountered countless times. The flaw is pretty obvious. How many people do you honestly think would refuse the tangible money that they can see, know is there beyond question and would refuse? Not many I wager right?
How many would choose to reject the money once it was in front of their face? honestly, how many do you think would refuse such a gift?

Do you honestly think that all non believers consciously choose to reject God? Willingly and with full knowledge of what awaits them if they do reject? Your analogy doesn't work. Do you think that anyone would willingly walk into a fire if they knew it was there?

Do you?

If God states that He will reconcile all things then how much interpretation do you need to counter that God can't?

There is no flaw in the argument. The flaw comes in people being able to accept things the way they want to accept them. We bow to God and His will not the other way around. The planet itself is testimony of God. Nature proclaims His handiwork. God works though people like us to reach others and they still refuse to accept Him.

I have a coworker who pretty much told me that God very well may be real but He's just not too concerned. I haven't given up on him though.

The purpose of the example is to show the foolishness of man. Just as it makes absolutely no sense to refuse the free money, it makes even less sense to refuse salvation simply because you don't want to give up your lifestyle.

 

[LightSeaker]

No, that doesn't answer the question. Is the sinner reconciled to God or is God reconciled to the sinner?

Interesting question. The way I'd answer your question is "neither". The reason being is that the whole of Creation, including all human beings, have never been separated and will never be separate from God. No reconciliation is needed because God's own Creation can not be other than united with God. Otherwise, creation would no longer exist.

.

 

[red77]

Just what I said. Our God is an all or nothing God. You can't take some of the bible and throw out the rest, believe parts and discard parts. Either The God of the bible is real and He created the earth and satan the way the bible says, or He didn't which means that He isn't.

Who says God didn't create the Earth? Or discard parts? Is there no such thing as metaphor or symbology in the bible for you? Is all of the book of Revelation literal in your opinion?

There is no flaw in the argument. The flaw comes in people being able to accept things the way they want to accept them. We bow to God and His will not the other way around. The planet itself is testimony of God. Nature proclaims His handiwork. God works though people like us to reach others and they still refuse to accept Him.

I have a coworker who pretty much told me that God very well may be real but He's just not too concerned. I haven't given up on him though.

The purpose of the example is to show the foolishness of man. Just as it makes absolutely no sense to refuse the free money, it makes even less sense to refuse salvation simply because you don't want to give up your lifestyle.

You've completely failed to address the point. Do you imagine this co worker of yours would refuse to accept a million dollar pay rise if it was tangibly and irrefutably in front of him? Man often is foolish, stupid, prone to fallibility etc etc. I am he! Your analogy fails because you aren't presenting a million dollars in tangible money to somebody, effectively you're asking them to take an intangible thing on faith which is different.

I ask you again. Do you think that anyone (your co worker for example) would voluntarily and willingly walk into a pit of fire if they knew beyond doubt it was there?

 

[timlamb]

Some of us don't believe in a literal satan which will no doubt be heretical too....

Matthew 12:26
"If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
Jesus says Satan has a kingdom.
Mark 4:15
"These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.
Jesus says Satan keeps people from the Word.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Satan has dominion over those in darkness.
Revelation 2:13
'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
Satan has a throne and a place where he dwells.
Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Revelation 20:7
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Satan is bound and freed again to decieve.

But you don't believe in him...well, he believes in you!


This is the whole problem, deny the scriptures and nothing makes sense.:o

 

[b.hopeful]

I deny Satan is real but it all makes complete sense...actually, it makes even more sense to me. Back when I thought to accept Jesus Christ meant I had to check my brain and heart at the door...I couldn't comprehend ever being a religious person. Thankfully, I was shown The Way.

 

[timlamb]

I deny Satan is real but it all makes complete sense...actually, it makes even more sense to me. Back when I thought to accept Jesus Christ meant I had to check my brain and heart at the door...I couldn't comprehend ever being a religious person. Thankfully, I was shown The Way.

If you deny the scriptures, what Jesus do you believe in?

 

[Nadiine]

If you deny the scriptures, what Jesus do you believe in?

amen and W/B Tim!!!