Universalism

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Hentenza
Christ atonement is conditional on belief. Those that choose not receive the atonement will not be saved. A 6 year old can not either deny nor choose God. The answer is no. God is just, you know

Before you believed, did he not die for you, sir?

Jesus the Christ died for those with repentent hearts that see that they are but dirty, filthy rags before God, and cry out for mercy and forgiveness. He died for none other.

 

[LJSGM]

Can you please post the scripture? Thanks.

Here is just one of many...

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[LJSGM]

Did you accept Him when you were 6?

No, but are you saying that the age of accountability is age 7-8?

What is the age of accountability? Can you be an adult and not have reached it? and where is this scripturally?

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by LJSGM

Like someone else pointed out as well that Jesus says "father forgive them for they know not what they do" kinda indicates that we are in some respect in the same boat as children, don't yah think​

Jesus also asked His father to take the cup from Him.

​

 

[LJSGM]

I used a verse by Jesus earlier,
that if they were blind, they would have no sin.

This can directly go to age of accountability in that tiny
children just do not know what sin is and do not have a
rationalized thought as to full knowledge of sin or God
for that matter as I view kids.

Matthew 18
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

There goes that theory....

I dont appeal to any emotionalism on that topic; esp. when
I said that even IF God did judge them as lost, I said I
would honor that since He is Sovereign and judges justly.

So I'm not sure where you get emotionalism in my reply.

The reason you draw children out of the punishment is because of the same thing some accuse universalists of, "emotionalism."

I asked you if you're so uncertain when it comes to little children, how can you be so certain when God calls us like "sheep" "little children" ect.

And again, annihilationism is to be set FREE from punishment
& penalty, not to pay for sin.

that is only your opinion....

There is plenty of good information in Bible that torment is
involved in punishment for lack of atonement.

then give the verses and we'll discuss them...

In fact, I'll tell you this,
if I were that Rich man in Hades, I couldn't WAIT for God
to snuff me out, it would a warm welcome than to know
what awaits me is endless payment in being separated
from Him and outside His kingdom.

Those are all parables...

You know, the subjects of the kingdom was refering to the Jews...

if you would go by them literally, you would have a problem, for it also says that we are like weeds that are thrown into a furnace which does not indicate everlasting torture but that of destruction/annihilation.

Hades was the "abode of the dead."

"abraham's bosom" was within hades....

 

[LJSGM]

Jesus also asked His father to take the cup from Him.

[/indent]

Could you explain what you mean by this.

 

[Hentenza]

Here is just one of many...

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The soul is eternal. The verse that you quote would be a contradiction if the soul was "actually' destroyed in hell. Look at the first portion. Also, how do you reconcile this one with the following verse?

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[LJSGM]

The soul is eternal.

Prove it through scriptures then because this is something else that is not present.

That which was created can be destroyed.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The second death is an everlasting punishment. You know, "the worm will not die" It means they will never be resurrected. It also is the opposite of everlasting life, making it consistent with the meaning of "the right and the left" which are opposites.

 

[Hentenza]

No, but are you saying that the age of accountability is age 7-8?

Why didn't you accept Christ at 6 or at 4 or at 2?

What is the age of accountability? Can you be an adult and not have reached it? and where is this scripturally?

The age of accountability is when they can choose or deny Christ. The bible does not give us an exact age.

 

[LJSGM]

The age of accountability is when they can choose or deny Christ. The bible does not give us an exact age.

So, theorically, this can only happen if you actually know that Christ exists then. Thoses that never heard of him do not go to hell?

 

[Hentenza]

Prove it through scriptures then because this is something else that is not present.

That which was created can be destroyed.

Actually only God creates, man makes. Only God can choose to destroy His creation but doesn't because God can not destroy that what He created in His image.

Many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments talk of the immortal soul: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.”

The second death is an everlasting punishment. You know, "the worm will not die" It means they will never be resurrected. It also is the opposite of everlasting life, making it consistent with the meaning of "the right and the left" which are opposites.

Everlasting punishment is everlasting. If you apply everlasting the same way then, can the believer hope to spend everlasting life with God?

 

[LJSGM]

Actually only God creates, man makes. Only God can choose to destroy His creation but doesn't because God can not destroy that what He created in His image.

He can destroy what he creates, and if he can't destroy it, how can he torture it for all eternity?

Many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments talk of the immortal soul: Psalm 22:26

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

Nope....

; 23:6;

6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

Ok, we CAN have everlasting life, I didn't say that we couldn't, but only if we're not destroyed. Spiritually speaking only if God's "life" is in us.


49:7-9;

7 No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him-

8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough- 9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.

Ummm... I think this is the opposite of what you wanted....

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This too...


; Daniel 12:2-3;

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Doesn't prove everlasting torture or that God can not destroy us.

Matthew 25:46;

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Already covered...

and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Nope....

Everlasting punishment is everlasting. If you apply everlasting the same way then, can the believer hope to spend everlasting life with God?

Yes.... I don't see your point....

 

[Hentenza]

So, theorically, this can only happen if you actually know that Christ exists then. Thoses that never heard of him do not go to hell?

Christ is God. No one is without excuse.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

 

[red77]

The end of the torment is a free gift here and now. God is a loving God and because He is a loving God He does not force His love on those that choose not to love Him. Forced love is no love at all. God is also just (justice) and an infinite, atemporal God demands an infinite, atemporal punishment. God so love the world that he sent His only begotten son to die for us so that those that believe in Him could be saved. The operative word is believe. God is perfect. He lacks nothing. What can you as a fallible, immortal, imperfect human can possibly offer God? Nothing but your love.

Is it loving to force people into existence with eternal torment as the default setting unless those fallible imperfect creatures manage to stumble on the right path? Where is the love in this exactly?

 

[Hentenza]

Is it loving to force people into existence with eternal torment as the default setting unless those fallible imperfect creatures manage to stumble on the right path? Where is the love in this exactly?

Stumble? You don't give God enough credit.

How is love forcing those that don't want to love Him to love Him?

 

[LJSGM]

Christ is God. No one is without excuse.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Ok, but I was trying to make you see that they do infact have a "rational" argument, for you all do the same things and decide who is and who isn't going to hell, i.e. children based emotionally on who you believe God is. You can justify (somehow, I don't know) someone like hitler to be tortured for an eternity, but not, say children. I think you all have a hard time when it comes to people that you actually know, like your family members... then you start to think... hmmmm... When they're more abscure though, then you have to think about it less literally...

 

[LightSeaker]

Christ is God. No one is without excuse.

True. And as God, Christ also is with out bounds nor is limited by beliefs or even by theology.

.

 

[LJSGM]

Stumble? You don't give God enough credit.

How is love forcing those that don't want to love Him to love Him?

here's a better question... one that's been avoided else where.... What is the purpose in torturing people forever compared to just destroying them like the bible says will happen?

 

[red77]

Yes, and I'm positive that he had false doctrines such as
Universalism in mind which lead people to a false sense of
spiritual complacency that they'll all end up in heaven at the
end anyways and would have no reason to know the true and
Living God becuz they don't care about His sacrifice.

I'm sure He envisioned the Rich man scenario in his mind over
and over again as people were in torment due to their separation
from God becuz they refused to believe in faith and recieve so
great a sacrifice from Jesus Christ who COULD HAVE pardoned
them thru their faith.

Once God is proven in the afterlife with no more doubts about it,
"FAITH" is off the table. And salvation is thru FAITH, not standing
at a judgment throne trying to get out of what they know is
coming.

TODAY is the day of salvation - while they are alive.
Hentenza is also correct in using the scripture that it's appointed
for us once to die, then judgment.
And that is supported perfectly by the Revelation account -
where they are not seen getting out again, the only one getting
out of Gehenna over time is Satan, and that's to allow him an
opportunity to put another generation to the test once they've
tasted of God's goodness.
Why is there no mention of the unrepentant lost getting out there???
(where it SHOULD be taught clearly for such a hugely important
doctrine!!) :o :o :o (if it were true)...


Pagan myths?
How about the MYTH that people repent & get saved after they
reach Gehenna!
Maybe you can find this 'true doctrine' in Revelation where it
explains the judgment and restoration collectively.
Can you find me that ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE where people
are repenting AFTER judgment and God comes back to review
their pleadings & conversions?
Then lets them out and releases them with the Saints?

I'd love to see your doctrine spelled out instead of READ IN
everywhere you want to redefine word meanings and rip
scriptures out of their contexts.

And as another poster asked, why in the world is Satan re-released
to test later generations at all if they all get into heaven anyways?

How pointless could God get? (and cruel to boot).

Lastly again, let me rehearse this ideal for you - since so many
Uvi's like to attack us "fire & brimstone/fear" folks:

Universalism teaches an identical fear factor/ and torment factor
since they claim that it's AFTER people pay for their sins that they
repent & get back out.
That is putting them thru torment and thru their fear and pain,
THEY REPENT? Sorry, but that's not any different than those
you attack.

Further, if they pay for their sins they didn't repent of, then they're
being paid for twice; once by Jesus and then on their own account.
Since when are sins paid twice?
And how does MAN pay for sin at all?

The serious problems with this false doctrine abound.

Nadiine

Firstly, you cannot in any kind of credible sense equate eternal unending pain and misery with any temporal variety. It's ludicrous! You are advocating and supporting a doctrine that supports everlasting pain and torment! UNENDING!! It does your position no good at all to say "there is no difference" because it is insane to say that there isn't! Furthermore plenty of universalists don't even believe that people are tortured into repentance anyway! I don't.

Oh, and can I please have a straight answer to this question which I have asked several times now:

Would it annoy you if all people were reconciled to God?

 

[red77]

Stumble? You don't give God enough credit.

How is love forcing those that don't want to love Him to love Him?

How so? I believe that an almighty loving God could bring all people into the fold and a knowledge of the truth without forcing them. You haven't answered my question about how it's loving to force life onto creatures with eternal hell as a default setting. Why?