Universalism

[PT Calvinist]

Do you have an argument here or not?

Tissue....

The only way a human being can be deeply and truly happy...is in a relationship with God. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity, the only God that exists. So...if you reject Jesus, you reject the only God that exists, if you reject the only God that exists, you reject your own happiness.

So in hell, it's not that God is torturing us but that we're simply experiencing the inevetable misery of happiness when we reject the only happiness for which we were made.

Allow me to demonstrate a twisting of words used comonly by universalists, "God is more powerful than man's hate, He is more powerful than their unwillingness to conform to Him"

This is true...but. They go on to say..."Therefore, because God is more powerful than man, man has no choice but to go to heaven."
As much as I'd like to believe this...it's faulty. it's an illogical leap.
God is not overcome by our hate...God is not overcome by our unwillingness. Why would God pull someone into heaven who hates Him? So they can hate Him more? Now of course if you believe in Universalism...you deny freewill. You use the common defense of..."well, they'll be transformed by God Himself". First of all You haven't answered my first question...now about this "transformed buisness" this is entirely wrong. How? Because sin was able to dwell in heaven before the time of Adam and Eve. The Bible wouldn't have that Lucifer built His throne higher than God out of "a hunger for power" if sin wasn't able to exist in heaven. Now what did God do to Lucifer? He cast him down...This tells me that sin is able to exist in heaven. It also tells me that God dosen't like sin in heaven. So answer me this, "Why did God throw Lucifer out of heaven rather than just transform Him?"

Perfect Love lived on the earth 2,000 years ago and they rejected Him...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."- John 14:6

He didn't say "Me and Buddha" or "Me and confucious" or "Me and whatever you think is way" He said "I AM The way and no one come except by me"

Jesus's words are ultimate truth.

Universalism fails..observe Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

that verse couldn't be more true today. That verse can be easily applied to universalism.

Universalists are guilty of a "Pick-and-choose" theology. I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.

You're welcome

 

[LJSGM]

No, it doesn't. Or it could "be easily applied to Calvinism".

The reason these arguments go on and on and are essentially not resolvable is because the Scriptures contain multiple soteriologies, multiple eschatologies, and multiple messages. No matter how you attempt to squeeze them into a simple story of salvation history--a simple handbook of "How to Get to Heaven"--they will escape you.

Some, all, many, few. Works, faith. All of these are involved. There is not just one story.

I don't agree....

Ten million times it seems to talk about destruction, the second death, worms which point to the grave, not having life, fire (fire destroys that which is thrown into it, gehenna - a garbage dump that destroyed garbage, need I go on?

It's so obvious to me that I just want to do this

 

[PT Calvinist]

No, it doesn't. Or it could "be easily applied to Calvinism".

The reason these arguments go on and on and are essentially not resolvable is because the Scriptures contain multiple soteriologies, multiple eschatologies, and multiple messages. No matter how you attempt to squeeze them into a simple story of salvation history--a simple handbook of "How to Get to Heaven"--they will escape you.

Some, all, many, few. Works, faith. All of these are involved. There is not just one story.

I gotta disagree here...It's mainly because Universalism claims that eternal hell is wrong. Why? Only because they took the meaning of a verse in context as meaning not-eternal and ASSUME that just because it fits that in a few verses it fits that way in all verses....Which is wrong. I believe someone has already disproved universalism many times on this thread since I remeber seeing a comparioson of all verses containting "Aionion"

 

[Nadiine]

I understand....

You don't want to say yes they are going to hell because you know it's not true and you don't want to say no they aren't because that would put you in the same boat as universalists.

I personally believe they're God's children and will be in heaven.
They didn't have the presence of mind to accept OR reject God
in any full knowledge.

However, IF that's not how God judges, you won't see me judging
Him for cruelty or evil becuz He's judging solely by His
perfect attributes and what He knows that we do not know.

So I proclaim God's absolute sovereignty in how He judges.
Whatever it is will be right.

 

[brinny]

God commands us to fear Him and to love Him with all of our hearts, minds, strength. He does not take kindly to not being taken seriously. Or that surely He was kidding and did not mean what He said about His wrath and what it means that it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. He does not take kindly to others dictating what the death of His Son meant, and dictating other paths to Him. For He is holy. First and foremost He is holy. He is to be taken seriously.

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality.

 

[Hentenza]

They have not chosen God and have denied him, but they are only 6 years old? Are they going to hell to be tortured forever?

Christ atonement is conditional on belief. Those that choose not receive the atonement will not be saved. A 6 year old can not either deny nor choose God. The answer is no. God is just, you know.

 

[LJSGM]

I personally believe they're God's children and will be in heaven.
They didn't have the presence of mind to accept OR reject God
in any full knowledge.

However, IF that's not how God judges, you won't see me judging
Him for cruelty or evil becuz He's judging solely by His
perfect attributes and what He knows that we do not know.

So I proclaim God's absolute sovereignty in how He judges.
Whatever it is will be right.

Well, then you may be appealling to your emotionalism then...

If you are so uncertain in this respect, then how are you so certain when it comes to non-children?

 

[LJSGM]

Christ atonement is conditional on belief. Those that choose not receive the atonement will not be saved. A 6 year old can not either deny nor choose God. The answer is no. God is just, you know.

The reason you rationalised in this manner is due to your (emotionalism) on the subject, even though it does not say they will not be punished just like everyone else, and gives no age of accountability.

 

[Hentenza]

The reason you rationalised in this manner is due to your (emotionalism) on the subject, even though it does not say they will not be punished just like everyone else, and gives no age of accountability.

Actually, no. I am using the many verses that show justification by faith and the many verses where Jesus speaks about the children. The conclusion is implied and not emotional.

 

[LJSGM]

The Holy Spirit tells us that God does not punish people with everlasting torture, yet people deny it and call it "emotionalism" before they even look into whether it is true or not because they hold more closely to their man made beliefs and don't know how to listen to the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures confirm that it is not true.

 

[LJSGM]

Actually, no. I am using the many verses that show justification by faith and the many verses where Jesus speaks about the children. The conclusion is implied and not emotional.

I was speaking of the ones that are not justified, and could you give the verses you are refering to?

 

[CaDan]

Jesus the Christ Himself said there is only One Way and that would be Him.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." ~John 14:6

Which no one here denies.

How precisely that works is the relevant question.

 

[CaDan]

You're welcome

And no one is making the "arguments" you claim you refute.

 

[Hentenza]

I was speaking of the ones that are not justified, and could you give the verses you are refering to?

That's the point. No one is justified unless they have faith and choose to believe. Children can not choose to believe and/or have faith, therefore, they are incapable of meeting the condition. There are many verses that show Jesus love for the children (ex, Matthew 19, Mark 9, etc) including the exhortation of not hindering the children. The implied conclusion is that children are not included in God's wrath until they can freely choose or deny God.

 

[Hentenza]

The Holy Spirit tells us that God does not punish people with everlasting torture, yet people deny it and call it "emotionalism" before they even look into whether it is true or not because they hold more closely to their man made beliefs and don't know how to listen to the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures confirm that it is not true.

Can you please post the scripture? Thanks.

 

[Nadiine]

Well, then you may be appealling to your emotionalism then...

If you are so uncertain in this respect, then how are you so certain when it comes to non-children?

I used a verse by Jesus earlier,
that if they were blind, they would have no sin.

This can directly go to age of accountability in that tiny
children just do not know what sin is and do not have a
rationalized thought as to full knowledge of sin or God
for that matter as I view kids.

I dont appeal to any emotionalism on that topic; esp. when
I said that even IF God did judge them as lost, I said I
would honor that since He is Sovereign and judges justly.

So I'm not sure where you get emotionalism in my reply.

And again, annihilationism is to be set FREE from punishment
& penalty, not to pay for sin.

There is plenty of good information in Bible that torment is
involved in punishment for lack of atonement.
In fact, I'll tell you this,
if I were that Rich man in Hades, I couldn't WAIT for God
to snuff me out, it would a warm welcome than to know
what awaits me is endless payment in being separated
from Him and outside His kingdom.

Absolutely I'd prefer it as my judgment. It's RELEASE
from all penalty -
and it's exactly what Atheists believe happens.
We just cease to exist.

Further, if that's how it is, then I can see why people
find it more important to live an ungodly, self focused
life and do what they wanted - you at least gambled
on one life you were SURE was real.

Makes no sense that people are just annihilated

 

[CaDan]

Christ atonement is conditional on belief. Those that choose not receive the atonement will not be saved. A 6 year old can not either deny nor choose God. The answer is no. God is just, you know.

Before you believed, did he not die for you, sir?

 

[LJSGM]

That's the point. No one is justified unless they have faith and choose to believe. Children can not choose to believe and/or have faith, therefore, they are incapable of meeting the condition. There are many verses that show Jesus love for the children (ex, Matthew 19, Mark 9, etc) including the exhortation of not hindering the children. The implied conclusion is that children are not included in God's wrath until they can freely choose or deny God.

Like someone else pointed out as well that Jesus says "father forgive them for they know not what they do" kinda indicates that we are in some respect in the same boat as children, don't yah think?

Also, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior at the age of 7-8, and I fully knew what I was doing and see no difference in accountability.

 

[Hentenza]

Before you believed, did he not die for you, sir?

Did He apply the atonement before I believed, sir?

 

[Hentenza]

Like someone else pointed out as well that Jesus says "father forgive them for they know not what they do" kinda indicates that we are in some respect in the same boat as children, don't yah think?

Also, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior at the age of 7-8, and I fully knew what I was doing and see no difference in accountability.

Did you accept Him when you were 6?