Universalism

[Tissue]

Which is why forced love is no love at all.

I had a middle school teacher. She was constantly on my case, giving me a hard time, etc, and I hated her. I would have gladly preferred her not to have acted toward me as she did.

Looking back on it, she truly wanted what was best for me, and gave me a hard time because I didn't live up to my potential. Because of her stern-ness, I'm a better person, and I have a certain sort of love for her.

Love is not required for salvation. It comes later.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."- John 14:6

He didn't say "Me and Buddha" or "Me and confucious" or "Me and whatever you think is way" He said "I AM The way and no one come except by me"

Jesus's words are ultimate truth.

 

[Tissue]

Oh back to the "LOVE" excuse.

God is love, He also allows innocent little girls to be
raped and murdered by perverted killers....

I can make lists of all the attrocities God has
allowed in His love to happen to people.

Eternal separation will be no different than what
He allows to happen to people for whatever His
purposes. (and there is always purpose in suffering)

I'm confused. You're saying God is loving, but, as is made obvious because of the atrocities of the world, he isn't as loving as I think he is? That is, his love is less than infinite?

 

[PT Calvinist]

Universalism fails..observe Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

that verse couldn't be more true today. That verse can be easily applied to universalism.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
He is holy. He is not a marshmallow of sentimentality. He loves His children. Jesus the Christ died for such as this. There are those who will never be His children and do not wish to be.

I disagree.

It is written for all to see.

 

[Tissue]

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."- John 14:6

He didn't say "Me and Buddha" or "Me and confucious" or "Me and whatever you think is way" He said "I AM The way and no one come except by me"

Jesus's words are ultimate truth.

I agree.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm confused. You're saying God is loving, but, as is made obvious because of the atrocities of the world, he isn't as loving as I think he is? That is, his love is less than infinite?

I'm saying that a God of love isn't acting the way you or I
would by allowing horrible things to happen as He does.

I love animals - so much so, that if I were God, I would NEVER
allow an animal to be abused or misused....
I may even not allow them to be killed for food either if I
had my way.

Now, do I apply my type of love onto God to decide that
He has to love like I think love should be displayed?
Or do I let God define love for Himself?

Obviously what He does has purpose. So allowing horrible
things to happen is in full line with who God is - LOVE,
becuz He has a righteous reason for it and will make
good of it later in some way I can't see right now.

We cannot project our ideals of love onto God becuz He
is above us and knows more than we do and Has an ultimate
plan in what He allows.

Knowing this, we can reconcile eternal separation; that in that,
He also has a plan and allows people to go there who reject
His sacrifice for them.
Yes it's harsh, but so is so much else that God allows also.

 

[Tissue]

Universalism fails..observe Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

that verse couldn't be more true today. That verse can be easily applied to universalism.

That's a sort of 'one-size-fits-all' verse, that can be employed by anyone to attack a belief they consider an enemy. It certainly doesn't single Universalism out.

 

[Tissue]

It is written for all to see.

I disagree.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by PT Calvinist
Universalism fails..observe Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

that verse couldn't be more true today. That verse can be easily applied to universalism.

That's a sort of 'one-size-fits-all' verse, that can be employed by anyone to attack a belief they consider an enemy. It certainly doesn't single Universalism out.

It applies to anything or anyone that is not of God.

 

[Tissue]

We cannot project our ideals of love onto God becuz He
is above us and knows more than we do and Has an ultimate
plan in what He allows.

That comes very close to rendering the statement 'God is love' meaningless, or at least unknowable.

Knowing this, we can reconcile eternal separation; that in that,
He also has a plan and allows people to go there who reject
His sacrifice for them. Yes it's harsh, but so is so much else that God allows also.

You haven't actually made a defense for your position, in that you haven't shown how it works. You're just saying, 'Both of these things are true, and they are not a contradiction.' I'm saying they are a contradiction.

 

[Tissue]

It applies to anything or anyone that is not of God.

From my stance, eternal punishment is not of God. Thus, I could just as easily utilize that verse against your position. This cancels the verse out for this particular discussion; it is a pointless endeavor, as one size fits all.

Add x to both sides of an equation, and you haven't done anything.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Universalists are guilty of a "Pick-and-choose" theology. I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.

 

[Hentenza]

You are drawing a distinction between 'belief in God' and 'belief in God' which I do not understand.

Again, even the demons believe in God. What do you think the difference is?

Any time I hear someone say, regarding Scripture, 'It is clear', I become immediately suspicious.

That particular verse is not saying that those who believe without seeing are more virtuous, but that they are blessed so that they can believe without seeing. That is, they are blessed with faith by the Spirit, because they did not see.

Do you know why Jesus replied to Thomas this way?

I don't think that's right. It doesn't make sense to me that those who believe from direct revelation are somehow less virtuous than those who believe without seeing. I don't think that's what the verse means.

You might have an argument if special revelation was the only revelation from God, but it isn't. God also revealed Himself in general revelation. What do you make of Romans 1:18-23?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Why does Paul say they are without excuse? Also notice how they "knew" God but by choice decided to not glorify God. Why is that? How does the verses above fit with universalism?

Is it mentioned in Scripture? No. Did he ask? I haven't a clue.

Let me ask you a follow-up question: Did Jesus ever eat cheese?

Non sequitur. It simply doesn't follow. What are the "good' things that the rich man received while alive? And when the rich man asked to be allowed to warn his family, why did Abraham reminded him that they have Moses and the prophets to listen to?

 

[Nadiine]

Universalists are guilty of a "Pick-and-choose" theology. I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.

That's exactly what it's based on at the source.

 

[Hentenza]

I had a middle school teacher. She was constantly on my case, giving me a hard time, etc, and I hated her. I would have gladly preferred her not to have acted toward me as she did.

Looking back on it, she truly wanted what was best for me, and gave me a hard time because I didn't live up to my potential. Because of her stern-ness, I'm a better person, and I have a certain sort of love for her.

Certain sort of love? God has agape love for us and he demands the same. Agape love is sacrificial not superficial nor is it sentimental nor sappy.

Love is not required for salvation. It comes later.

What do you think Jesus meant when He gave us His commandment to love God with all our hearts and all of our soul? How do we attain this kind of love?

 

[b.hopeful]

Love God with all of our heart, soul........and mind. I can't love God and use my mind if God is a god of wrath, anger and vengeance. That is such a contradiction in my heart soul and mind.

Agape is unconditional....a God that only loves those on his team doesn't seem like an unconditional loving God.

 

[Hentenza]

Love God with all of our heart, soul........and mind. I can't love God and use my mind if God is a god of wrath, anger and vengeance. That is such a contradiction in my heart soul and mind.

Agape is unconditional....a God that only loves those on his team doesn't seem like an unconditional loving God.

This stems from a misunderstanding of what love actually is. CS Lewis said it very well in "The Great Divorce":

There are only two kinds of people – those who say "Thy will be done" to God or those to whom God in the end says, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell choose it. Without that self-choice it wouldn't be Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will every miss it.

 

[Tissue]

Universalists are guilty of a "Pick-and-choose" theology. I have encountered many universalists who have stated that they adopted universalism because they did not like the idea of eternal damnation. In essence, to do this this is to adopt a theology based on feelings and this is wrong.

My sympathy toward Universalism is based upon logic: I cannot see how a loving God and an eternal hell can be reconciled. This is, I think, a very common reason for those who sympathize with Universalism. To write this off as 'feelings' is to misrepresent the conviction.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Love God with all of our heart, soul........and mind. I can't love God and use my mind if God is a god of wrath, anger and vengeance. That is such a contradiction in my heart soul and mind.

Agape is unconditional....a God that only loves those on his team doesn't seem like an unconditional loving God.

you fail to see anything aside from your emotionalism.